May 4, 2014|
Chad Finn's recent series for the Boston Globe on the top 50 Red Sox prospects of the draft era (http://bit.ly/1um3mMM) frames this week's podcast with Chad Finn of the Boston Globe and Hall of Famer Peter Gammons. Who was the best Red Sox prospect of the last 50 years? Which prospects were the most underappreciated in their era? Who was the biggest bust in that half-century? All those topics and plenty more are explored on this week's podcast.
Transcript - will not be 100% accurate
During this week by Chad Finn of the Boston -- just completed what was an extraordinary project I think about the top fifty Red Sox prospects of the trapped there. And we're going to be joining we're going to be joining Peter Gammons a little bit as well that's -- bit. You can kind of pick his brain and it and see what on earth he was thinking when he was breaking some of these guys -- As insanely highly or or or perhaps not giving enough credit back in the day if you -- through -- the globe archives. Of this time -- To start with. What was the impetus for YouTube to take on this project. What struck you hinted to say OK but the world needs is fifty years of Red Sox of Red Sox prospect -- But I appreciate the extra net and I think that is just long long but as if you read my stuff Chad that you'll note that I am -- -- -- We're in the same boat -- A couple things struck me you know when you mentioned Peter. You know of the Gammons -- you were one yourself -- people grow up reading him. And that's a big I've read about the project is influence what my dad bring on the newspaper. -- Sunday after a while every day but Sunday was -- -- -- Sunday baseball notes. You just devoured it and in influence a lot of people influence and strength of Theo Epstein and team getting in the baseball -- that they readily admit that. Into me it was just. The joy of going back and looking at what some of the summit thinks Peter wrote about guys in the years. What sparked this particular aspect of it was at peace date shown field did for ESPN in 2011 where. There's a quick one day thing he probably knocked it down and our two but it -- the top fifty. Prospects of the draft there and it was just fascinating. And it. It's spark something in my mind to make me think this would be great to do with the Red Sox start thinking about I have this global archive here that nobody really uses. On to the extent that we could. For autographs and photo of everybody in there. All the stuff Peter in the baseball writers -- through the years and it. Get that you reached a moment go back and look at the first thing is upset about them what missed it coming through the minor leagues. And of course this is the fiftieth anniversary of the draft. Time and age as you know -- -- -- significant part of it's -- this really fascinating way to follow baseball from another degree besides the dated at the ballpark right. The prospect in baseball America -- rankings every year. And so use some of that stuff too and kind of help me find a shape to this where. Catholic it pretty pretty good gauge of what the Red -- best prospects last fifty years torpedo confirm that one way to help out there. He probably wrote 60% of the things that all the cutting and pasting it -- this past bullets but today it was. It was a couple of those different things -- But the impetus for. And so you have access to -- I've and you also use. This great resource of of kind of pass scouting reports right from the hall of fame -- which is a great and growing resource that's on the it's on the baseball -- website and it's it's. I'd like Xerox versions essentially of what the -- Solomon went to see. Probably -- -- USC is a sophomore Jim Rice and high school war. Dwight Evans -- the late discovery by stature Stephenson. What Chatsworth high school in California in 1969. Guys scouts barely saw. When it of course being this great -- -- player. Had a great career but also had these enormous tools that -- -- for Mobley and they discovered him a couple weeks for the draft process. So that was a great resource in the baseball America. Top tens which go back to 1983. That really helped put into perspective what. Some of the bigger and lesser names of Red Sox organization how they were thought of it that particular time. So talking to Chad -- of Boston about his fantastic I'm going to I'm going to use adjectives every time and I went damage long result yes now -- -- that well. Again it's anonymous felt that -- solid super tell ritualistic. So when you were thinking about how to rank them what was it that you were trying to when you define a top prospect. What what does that mean to you because at a certain point you have to come up with definitions. So that there's something big guides that ranking that's something that. For the first time I had the chance to really struggle in interesting way. Because I got to do baseball America top ready for the Red Sox this year. And in it's really you know trying to Parse out the differences. About what it means to be a prospect. Can be strange in especially when your putting as much time. Into this in just staring at -- sheet of paper and you know differentiating between two guys for whom the margin of distinction between -- can make Maryland to pull my team. Really narrow -- hard to define how did you go about making about establishing that's ratification. Well the important thing a tragedy was taped how players are perceived now as prospects and applied that to those days when it was far less information that you had that you -- depending a lot of cases -- one scouts' eyes you didn't have. A guy might have been saved any young pitcher immigrants are torrent seas start to use this great arm. You'll get a strikeout to walk ratio was in 1969. At double and you -- warrants go that that's a guy would be perceived as a prospect today. I'm Wade Boggs who really wasn't perceived as a prospect -- organizational guy left. Available on the draft one year but you know hit 320 every year. Nowadays you'd be I think much better like he -- defense came around later because he got on base and you put it would be like Youkilis was twelve years ago or. Quite frankly you know even you -- I think wasn't wasn't as highly regarded as -- in a way appearance Ekene tells you where. That kind of model -- third -- -- is. And I do think fifty you can you -- force people to reconsider the nature of the industry and how it valued players. Again it in the case of Youkilis and also was at the strange asterisk of not looking like the prototype. -- so that was that killed him in terms of how scouts would view him yet at that time and I think that now. Derby at least some greater willingness to look beyond that but not completely because you still especially in the -- you -- great athletes. We're going to be really good defensive and all around players. People would probably look at Nicklaus and you had to put him in the around -- -- around like 32 or something. Yeah I use -- low thirties the and it's funny -- -- -- guy who was the hardest person to me to figure out who's Dustin Pedroia but 'cause. There was so much perception of him all of and the Red Sox organization you know they really believed in him when they drafted him but. Other teams look at him and he was not quite as fit as he is now. -- as Terry Francona pointed out the first time ever met him he was carrying a McDonald's that it lets you it has been training. Yet that stuff pretty fast yet to that if it was all David Epstein comparisons because of how we looked little white guy playing shortstop that there's an estate and second base. In -- stop the Red Sox organization but. The Red Sox looked at him and said there's a lot of skill here. To go win the the ball tools to go with the skill and the baseball ability and I don't think what people recognized that tools and him. So even though he's a fairly recent player had to move him around a lot because like there was so much conflicting information on what people thought of him. When he was coming in professional baseball so. Let's say a couple of examples who did you find the greatest divide to be between how that Arab you'd miss the prospect in how you view him now while that's a good one com. I would say Frankie Rodriguez -- pretty interesting one he had some success in the minor leagues as a pitcher they drafted him. You want to be shortstop. Dave said maybe complete shortstop he did for part of its first year pro ball but they had in mind is that -- Euro on -- Edie thought he's gonna switch. From shortstop if he failed after three years that did it after one needs are pitching great -- -- pro ball but he was a guy who had a great arm. Through really straight 95 -- hour fastball I'd just like a shortstop would. But didn't have the chancellor's stuff he didn't really have great command of his other pitches and he did have put up. Particularly good numbers and or minor -- he did strike guys out but he walked -- guises up and down. And -- someone who just based on his incredible ability. Combining -- two as a potential pitcher and as a shortstop that he was my best prospects in baseball that when I think it's our. Twelve top fifteen guy right but I don't think you'd be perceived that -- now I think you'd be perceived as a guy who still lot of tools but we're not quite sure how they're gonna translate. We're that he and a breaking in the -- after Miami. I had him. Geez I think fifteen or sixteen but it was just because. He was so well regarded -- as a guy who keeps his name -- prospects list -- -- top prospect but -- America at least voice. Number two another year and you see him alongside guys like me and -- -- -- so. I even if you knock him down a paid for. You know how he would be -- nowadays than those days use use. Almost as the lead prospect is it was a graceful ease the minds of the people in -- With the highest -- on the list. While that's a good question. I'm depends what you think of Carl Pavano I guess it along their career writes kind of got him a punchline and a couple spots but. He was a tremendous prospect people forget that they forget that. They forget it how how coveted he was -- round days. Where is the reason it wasn't like there was a giveaway when when the Red Sox acquire Pedro rather. You know for Carl Pavano and you know and -- Tony -- Q yeah eventually Pavano was a guy who's getting better to get better that your targets and Montreal wanted to -- right number one and it's always been some rumors. That the Yankees were willing to part with young Marion or -- Pedro but ultimately decided not to do it and so the Red Sox are next on the on the checklist there for Jim beating Seattle the Expos GM at the time and they pulled off the deal Pavano was a really good prospect Jesus ago had some big cuts in his career. Top of the list is pretty much all the guys I mean it's right -- famers it's Evans and price in -- inland it's just. It's just a matter of how you organize one guy jumped out to me that I didn't think of at the beginning. Among some when it came really great player with Cecil Cooper and his I think he was out of sight I think a little bit Red Sox fans he's treated the brewers sure. With sending seven season but he -- he like 381 year in the minor leagues and just had great numbers all the way up and you almost saw some hints of I -- say blatant racism with him but. He had some managers who thought he was you know these code words sleazy -- -- that sort of thing and you look at the numbers he's -- eighty times these. He's hitting 315 double -- 380 in triple -- 21 years old that's a guy everybody would love nowadays and of course he is. Pretty good player for the Red Sox in the great player for the brewers so I was led to two billion galaxies -- who -- -- -- and maybe he gets. Absolutely and you know and kind of that that is -- because as you point out the other names that are in there are kind of halt in developer careers. And then all of a sudden it's like oh yes right this guy did come up in the Red Sox it's on every key known as they're tea toxic America. Who is who had the best me to a career who didn't make the list Schilling yeah. It -- never on a top ten Red Sox prospect list and yet hit one really good year I think. The trade and mediate Mike potter could deal with Brady Anderson do it. You -- two great players right ultimately but it worked out well for the Red Sox are -- a very good pitcher here for the way to three years it is here. Two chilling awhile to develop. Use breaking through and double play when they traded him but still he had it occurs showing that we saw all those years to strike after strike you walked a lot of guys certain you -- you can book at him and imagine what he was -- -- -- thrown hard had no idea what else was going on. But he never registered on the prospect radar then and clearly the Red Sox who have a lot of young pitchers at that time didn't didn't think of as highly of and as they did but I went there capsule factory always people it and make it. But of course her one on him is good career is anybody you know top ten career for this list but it just wasn't there than. It's interesting because -- remember when when the Red Sox are John Smoltz going back and reconstructing that tree with some of the parties to regulatory and actually -- royal who's currently the Red Sox minor league pitching coordinator. Who has been to Detroit pitching -- smoltz within their system. And at that time when the trade happened smoltz was just -- stuffed -- with a super high walk rate and you know and it just so he was they were just young and so it took awhile. For them to figure out the delivery that were going to allow them to work to use the kind of power that they had. It's probably it's in its -- wife Frankie Rodriguez with so highly regarded as you know you say well he has. 95 granted the street ness of it you know of it should have mitigated against it but. You say I'll go figure it out a figure it out men. Yes it's such a difficult thing to project how much how much of this project just underscored that idea for you. The challenge of projecting. Into you know the idea of like okay. We can say that someone is a project as a prospect that. What does you know ultimately what is that going to mean for their future. Well you have a way better idea and now and you still really aren't sure on -- -- you can look at the look at Hanley Ramirez menus in the Red Sox organization you watch him play he's electrifying. And and you look at the numbers in the year and -- three months to eighty. And you wondering why doesn't project of the performance I've read it's -- it kids. There immature their acclimate into one thing or another there homesick or they just don't like them manager sort of thing is that things you can account for and that was so much. So much worse back then I mean you have a kid who's an evil who possibly human his elbow in 1974 -- price never hear from them again right you know. The one thing around yet I want Pena -- he's that he's actually really good one too because I have a couple meters from the sounds of semblance suggest. Was one Pena close and I thought well no probably you know effectively -- some phenomenal numbers in the minor league down. That that's really kind of a set career to great starts the Red Sox never heard from again and you have to figure well at least we heard of one Pena you're talking. 1966. On there are so many promising pitchers you probably through 95 miles an hour that we never heard of because one thing happen and they were on. Was there anything that you were able to kind of come away with in terms of the pace of development you know guys were. More successful if they had it you know if they had X amount of grooming in the minors or if they were fast track you know the one who. Who's to doubt we're the ones who were in -- fast track you know anything along those line. With hitters if you put up the numbers you move fast even especially in the seventies that Dwight Evans was a fifth round pick as I mentioned before they. -- he was the wait I got the notice I think five weeks before the draft and Gerry Stevenson scout sent his report in the Red Sox that you can find that. By the way elephant Gerry Stevenson seems like he's all right yeah like he he he started every one of these before it went out you know at that point the theory goes those loaded. Loaded teams -- and seventies -- an analyst as he came up he seemed to have hand most of those guys as a -- from -- and when he played. Here with southern cal against Harvard incident Gerry Stevenson talked -- big guys seem kind of nice that the fact that -- of and the perception from all of these guys that that if you were a young guy like Evans who wasn't a first round -- you put up numbers you showed some really incredible skill -- Red Sox -- -- armistice you know right away -- -- -- -- you know think about baseball. You went up fast we saw him we talked about it last. October reasonable -- -- is the first. A twenty year old Red Sox player to be playing in at this magnitude moments and Evans and 72 when he's called up in September and played that when he hurled. Jim writes that -- basket thirties five home runs I think in between -- and replaces. In 1920 year old four more in the playoffs and 73. Leading. Up -- markets and a little World Series as a cult then and for some reason I sent him back in some four when he is ready and is clearly rating 73 but he put up huge numbers that are very young age prevalent another one a year and a half. Minor league ball now says he's won MVP in his rookie year and so that's a few the skills they recognize that. Fast where there was the prospect who followed kind of the most atypical like their least -- Trajectory the one who -- to -- took a wild -- have the skills you know have the skills come together in a way to -- in the top prospect. I would say among guys who. Made a big problem desk there was release them up and down in terms of perception of him he's really highly regarded and signed him the basketball players Anderson cancer and you concede that could be -- machine that's it or budge. -- anybody get beat -- the ball. The least of all Deion Sanders that's about it it is certainly if exactly and he he had some ups and downs and actually use the Red Sox media guides from that time for another thing keeps archive. And one year it's the catcher of the future. Next -- injury -- ball -- armies the catcher of the future next year Fiske is -- rookie of the year and -- it but that's really he has some peaks and valleys with him on the way and that's. Is Tampa might list you'd think our -- this 101 of the great catches of all time might -- higher but. Comes -- and an expansion draft the Seattle pilots which might have changed some history there and getting him but. This if this it was a guy who's of some debate within the Red Sox organization at that time. Well coming up up ahead we will talk to Peter Gammons and have him weigh in with some of these well we'll get you will give you the -- to put Peter on the hot seat and and figure out. What was always setting me straight and yeah it -- ago and the bakery you could they be cross examination regarding regarding the prospect right now that you have been using it. Chad this again Chad -- Boston Globe fantastic. I would take phenomenal for the attitude this time series on the top of your thought about it that. I appreciate them in those it's a labor of love and as I wrote the piece that I'm a short the labor parlance if the. So we've we've we're going to continue our conversation with Chad -- of the Boston -- that is fantastic. Brilliance top fifty. That's yet to table that we use this time runner awards along. Let but in order to really invigorated I thought there would be fantastic to be good to be joined by Peter -- Peter thank you so much for coming in that. Thank you end so this project is Chad was explaining to us is involved in a -- degree of of plagiarism. By virtue of cutting and pasting. To promote -- -- you're kind of I mean really groundbreaking work on on in terms of minority coverage. I guess that before we get into thinking about some of the individuals it is worth asking. What was typical minor league coverage of of of an organization like before. You had the opportunity you know before you thought about how to approach. Coverage of the Red Sox. Prospect pool but there wasn't a lot of coverage of -- -- a little bit but. Is there wasn't a -- I mean it was way before the baseball Americas and things like that we're going back and but I started to -- in in 697071. There was. It was just really fun for me to do and I guided sidebars of what -- like sort of break I was covering high school. Baseball -- me most -- -- there I mean if -- basketball. And com college basketball but you know I still my passion for baseball such I love going to put talking wolves and being with a then there and see. Pittsfield to me and that kind of thing in the world when there and then later when just played there and so when I just. It was part of by my because my sports DNA just always loving the game in the mightily as a fun. I really am sorry they don't know enough now like I now spend the time. It Cape Cod league game. Which is really fun because you can do -- all show up in the major leagues earlier in there remember that. It's still it's it's every level of the game is really fun. Well getting to the big picture prospect question of the big prospect question who do you just based on their minor league career. Before they sent spent a day in the major leagues TU who was the best prospects -- you ever saw. Coming up in the Red -- system. A -- at two different ways that first would be Jim. I mean we got through with Chad had a ball and guess right and ultimately we salute all -- Reuters. Because he struggled in the first place in nineteen. In -- in. 74. And historic street was in the starting lineup on opening day 75. That the resonate with so -- was so strong in him when triple -- small. That's. Ago Jim Rice and Russian arms license first round draft from the in the draft they believe this house. Clemens was different means. In the days based meals at the draft just like me. FF I understand -- -- -- today. When we were going through that for for a they got to the sixteenth pick in the first round in Montreal for University of Michigan right handed pitcher -- stole. What could cause some purses. To be thrown across that was here's a guy you have -- Afghan security Bonderman finally got -- it would replace a player for the -- all exports are -- strike. And so Clemens with equipment with kind of the consolation prize laws but it didn't take long. Mean or BP's scouts route their -- And they called and he became. In the heat -- -- to double in pitched in the playoffs. Couples counseled me it's easy it's not like in video tease shall mean. He's so good. We all know the stories what happens is -- Jiri has problems with often want to pitch inside more. But -- You know things -- happen I mean. You know the -- like you -- trial. Mean fair point I mean. Isn't it slightly dark greens. But well things -- -- -- Yep my -- looked almost as good on their borders for an awkward chip right -- election looks like a pretty good prospect. So I actually wanna encouraged Chad to -- to jump in since you have you know you you. Look through the -- cease. You saw Peter's columns through the years on these guys who are where the guys who you were really curious about is. His his use on the -- that mask about. -- -- I mean there's so many guys in the early seventies that beat him in NATO with a Red Sox made elsewhere it's tough to gauge like what that would have been local news dot coming up there -- Sox of course Cooper who had his moments here moved on. A one -- Nikkei is too. I'm sure you would call is just brutal defensive shortstop they finally moved in the outfield it. That the better array of talent they have in the seventy's what is it like they recognize. Actually all the guys -- that. In some ways. Next to. -- -- -- -- Was that guy it was Dwight Evans I remember those and -- -- Anderson with the Phillies who was on the cover of whistles through ballyhooed and is seventy my first spring training. And a home. People talking about how good he has -- Castro was a great mentor of mine and he was really -- it. A writer like twenty something years younger than anybody else -- the -- -- Castro was great to me and I learned a lot from them. I remember one day in spring training. After you know we're after the game and so forth and so I'm -- -- something and remembers. Williams owe them a lot Anders. Williams is finally you know he hasn't had the average numbers like plans going to be great. That is right -- -- thrower and and put. I always had the ideas that Evans might turn out great and the it was really full liberals and that whole group that came up. And it played in 75 and then. Sort of one off because of free agency but. It was really fun. Also fun to be young writer hovering -- team. -- -- it did that they had so they had characters who have veterans and then she is still able to engaging character I ever covered. To have all those young players -- -- and -- be close to the same age was a great experience for him that you really do a lot. They probably get a lot more for me than I ever did for any of them in terms of understanding. -- all of it that the the the traps that you get into when you get the big leagues the difficulties of struggles remember in those days. A lot of coverage. -- -- -- to go out. Early every day that those sites they were about to issue irritating. So there always hit earlier to a plot and all of a -- be out -- throwing BP and shaggy and reflect that in. Tucked under -- tried to get to know how players flawed. Was this really important and the players were really happy to do it lately they've really -- that they love sharing all wolves -- At least -- -- -- mystery to me to -- in. But this item of the day -- that they were embracing the next style of journalism and I was just so plopped in the middle of it and got to learn from. Perhaps in part because you have the first depreciation and you're perform at the vanguard of the appreciation of prospects. It spoke there as you know there's two injury miners and Bob Montgomery exactly. He gets rave reviews coming up whenever realize that he did it ultimately there's a parallel a little bit as good -- -- what time it was almost for the angels. And he said to me I don't want that to happen twice as likely to. Be great here I've agreed situation -- about. Sixty games a year and he was probably argue about that -- him. At their end Dwight Evans is an interesting one to me because he is someone whose greatness was on time in some ways if he were a player now than he would be. We we talked about the Wade Boggs revenue was scared to keep the and a prospect continuum where there's this growing appreciation of the certain kind of player overtime. If we have seen Dwight Evans at the time when we had available defensive metrics on them. And when we had available. You know it and when we had a proper appreciation of what it meant to walk. Like 300 times a year right then he would he. You know he did that the miners do in late ninety's he's year tripling of the -- here that there's a season so. Who to you who were who were people you know prospects he looked back on who you covered and you say Peter is that. This is someone who it would have -- very differently based on what I how I -- the game now. Com. I think boxes one I don't think I'm ever going down. During the strike two for -- And -- and infinitely cal Ripken way Bard's classic and at the pleasure -- there and boxer about seventy years when he -- is getting very bitter about not getting to the big leagues and kept being told they have more power all the so open. And a I did not appreciate. It. That. Meticulous on base. For 32 whatever. Did I didn't appreciate how good he could become. I think another one into this today. It it really bothers me to think he did he got hurt because. That it. Mike Green well. As a young player was so much better than a lot of us relies very cute little goofy to me walked up in the clouds of Sports Illustrated the company want to -- -- I mean to I have to be the MVP not negative thing the world earlier but but that's okay. But -- you I think it was 87 -- 3987. Walks in thirty minutes strikeouts one year I had to it lives check. What my favorites just players in the last fifty years who bomb had more walks and more extra bases and strikeouts. And there were very few -- in that time pools and Pedroia at the time. Mike Greenwald for up -- -- -- half of them list and and he tore up his ankle never the same player and he was one. I guess I wasn't covering him for the globe for I definitely. I completely new. Misrepresent what he wants others are really good player I said no idea anyway. Chad was there any you know were there any prospects he found it particularly difficult to rank him you know or. Where there instances of you know where there -- instances of players who. With the benefit of hindsight looking at these glowing reports Hewitt you know these guys who who Peter we're kind of excited -- imagination about them. And then all of a sudden they -- fizzle in in trying to figure out why what that what what happened between that glowing scouting report. In the it would end up happening and when you were curious about either. You know as one of the guys who's at the very back of the list think of 4849 some are married -- Burgess who has a kid who put up. Just Ken Griffey numbers in a ball and it's still pretty good he's young as you climb the ladder and all of a sudden your sister on. I think he just left camp when union never not the word from him. Is there must have been a lot of instances of that especially in the seventies and early eighties we. These prospects look so good and and something would go wrong with them personally or on the field and that we -- the chance just -- he seems like somebody who. He was won the national army thought he was going to be a phenomenal player and -- -- the adjustment to double play which is always difficult maybe just sort of -- You never know -- I'll bet I was very naive about some of the off field so we heard stuff about guys again that might have been. Might have been part of it. There was the Sheffield fish who's. Nephews are now. Prominent prospects at Vanderbilt. And. He just disappeared. And one law center one. Of -- Com. -- -- Woods Hole. Because I think that was his make. -- -- -- Hard sinker slider he. It was the best of all their. Pitchers and so. And yeah that'll drive here double there was real but. It wasn't. Pitching coach -- The line. Really he never he never went CO then hopefully joneses and the and the effort to. It. But he. Was. He pitched for maybe five years. He could never actually see one. And those stories. -- should be very very hard. If you would have been -- here. He had. Distinct chip on the shoulder which I think sometimes you need to. To have to play in the New York or Boston fell -- So following up on a question like that you know that is the that is an experienced physical trauma that probably played a significant you know and in physical limitations and ultimately played a significant role in him not. Achieving his ceiling. What you think of the of the the prospects who we just kind of imagined. Or you heard it had a real chance to be something special. But who didn't you know I don't wanna use the word -- necessarily because I think that it's kind of unfair at times. It's easy to fall into the trap of using that term. Over will be broadly especially when. It does in justice of the circumstance that the guy -- not ultimately become what you think they might but. When you think broadly about the guys who didn't achieve debt ceiling. Is there a common denominator was it -- just that the tools weren't what people thought they were or is there always. That component of something whether it's an injury whether it is you know whether it is make up the issue you know off field. How do you see you know if for those guys to. And achieve their potential that that I think. That sticks out to me it was a major to support him while. I thought I know they -- great it was a makeup issues just. He wants them mature and it was. Getting into trouble off the field just never quite -- concentration skills. Excellent. Looked -- and said John -- make John workers there that I have a he was a great -- They went missing trade for wise. Does that he was one that. We all thought was going to be in the ones -- mean. It's it's Xiamen. Where it is. He -- up to make it through here they're never really. I never felt they've liked. The facilitators of the eighties. -- Ojeda John -- who lives near where three of my favorite guys in. But. They can look -- for her sudden I'm never looking down. The street in Baltimore talkers in the not leaving the ball well all. The houses in -- has now on the mound Baltimore. And as you probably know there are too many better people on the planet the producers -- -- jog -- was phenomenal in the so good in yet. He had this way. All coming in so starting game and -- driver out how crazy it. -- Detroit about -- my shoulder -- it was his way of putting all the negatives out of his mind completely would make excuses. They've all pitchers tough especially on the planet but it was his way of prepared for the game. And baseball people in the -- I didn't understand I mean today. If you're pitching for John Farrell Joseph ward a huge pictured -- Joseph Maddon or people like that. They completely understand. And they -- as we sold later went to was healthy pitcher for the cardinals who -- best pitchers in the game one of the great competitors. -- -- was different but. I don't think they ever quite forgave him for slipping a bathtub at Anaheim and -- -- you missed it it. You know at you and your quotes -- it actually happened I. Oh. You're not reported from -- stood -- to operatives. At but. That was an interesting group and of course first and turned out to be -- little you know -- a line of go for a team that that before 2000 afforded when we should have some incredible. Pitching performers in the post season with. T -- it Hearst. And and then on to. Home. To Pedro and so forth so. Was -- someone. You know Alex mentioned all of the of the things that can set a prospect on the wrong path along the way it was a someone who just didn't get the opportunity along the way because. I've coached him like my manager and implicated in -- double -- -- still and they discarded and Cecil Cooper. Comes to mind a little bit. I would I would absolutely that is perfect ball a -- being going up to gain. In Manchester, New Hampshire. Com where they were white old or portal aren't epithet at a let. And seeing Cecil Cooper here a couple of triples doubles and he was a tremendous. You remember what will -- that came back. But he is very skinny guy. And he had problems. He was told to go in for defensive defense for -- from -- ones -- now Johnson and we took offense to and that was in the management -- careers and for and I. You know I I enjoy George confidentially but I was sort Cecil Cooper in this ballpark could have been. A great player and them say if certain guys play their whole careers here. There were borderline hall of famers Fred -- she's a program that would be the two guys I think most of. With regards to one thing that that. That really interest me in looking at Chad's list if it's actually really quite striking I think because the number of of the players. Mean in previous eras who had high ceilings hit all of them. Yes in one thing that's there's been increasing discussion about this idea that. It clear valuation is getting better more precise fit when you look at the baseball America top twenty top fifty from five years ago vs twenty years ago. That it did a better job of reflecting the reality of what they're going to become. -- the Red Sox exceptions to that you know in in the eyes of either of you did they do a pretty good job of kind of identifying the right guys in and actually. When you look at it had just enumerate the top ten list for us if you -- but I thought it was an extraordinary. On Duff Jessica him the Nomar Ken Brett. Bogart's Fred -- Cecil Cooper rhetoric on consumers to it Evans looked as we've talked about says we talked about guys who I mean that's. With the exception of perhaps can Brett you know we're talking about guys with with the exception Brian is a great choice because he ones. He had a chance to be truly great did they get that wrong and he -- you've been his brother as a hitter. Is probably so yeah our debt. And I remember -- -- and he. Was jewel as a person a whole family's way. He was certainly. Breezing along with -- -- here playing -- Like a at that's that's -- look at your house trichet for things. Once at the moment four consecutive starts. -- -- -- it could hitting numbers he did what ails them I can picture ones. Playing for the angels and pitcher. You talk about. And he's got a bet. And 101000 dollars. To. One reporter recently -- 81 base it 300. If like that I. He found out where the airplane historic. But but but but I guess the you know -- -- that that's worth asking is is -- valuation getting better in more precise in terms of these prospects in terms of how we evaluate prospects at the time or. You know or perhaps have the Red Sox over the course of of the time that you've had the opportunity to their -- -- and actually you know. Today where they where they ahead of the curve and in some at least some of these times maybe not all of them like the Frankie Rodriguez era but. Have they been a bit ahead of the curve in terms of doing a good job of identifying what they had -- I. It depends on the I think this era is very good I mean starting with -- -- -- all the people who came in here I think you're very good and they're very realistic. And they. All. I think it's very important part of evaluating talent. They always cautioned that they can be wrong. And that they need to adjust and that's. Those -- -- -- -- -- John -- for the cardinals and was it Leo. You're talking about what we do with pictures. -- one thing we always maintained his we can be flexible I mean if we can be we are often wrong. That they're really good at that here and they let people be able. Let it more human understanding to I think today. Teams are are more geared as some teams are some teams aren't -- and in the old days old walls no problem play. In the YouTube Google. And in Bristol in. 1981 during the strike and that. I mean. They didn't go much for like coming down hitting earlier you know earlier work the way you do didn't have any extra coaches Tony -- -- -- So it's it's very different but I think that. The view of what prospects are in the importance in the game I think if it's gotten much greater as we've. Place more importance on the part of his ferocious reportedly arrested by -- the same time I think a lot of teams now are very good. -- value waiting your own which I think. I don't know how you feel Alex but. Others will report to be able to evaluate the players in -- old system the players and others as. Well. I think -- I think that certainly if you if you better be able to do it right because the opportunities for acquiring talent becomes so you did. It really you need to be pretty precise in terms of what you have available Q immediately immediately to the Yankees. And you know and there need to go out and spend. You know spend hundreds of millions of dollars on pitching well. You know what if they had kept around it rather than like a guy like -- on the White Sox to reach minor league free agency. You know. That's that's. Tens of millions of dollars and millions of dollars question in this organization -- -- from Miguel Gonzales still. Because. You know because of letting him -- -- in seeing him become a very productive and good pitch in the -- I think. Being able to identify not just agreed prospects the ones were the top at the top that list but the ones who could become something that so hard that -- Hard I think that. -- -- Hopeful about the -- maybe the two best friends. I can ever techno world to the second round -- Jon Lester and Dustin Pedroia guises. Other people that love them like Lester. And there were a lot of people I can remember getting calls from people. You know making phone midget who's on fourth and -- Pedroia and Josh Byrnes. Always -- -- the -- and he said he uses. Don't was what people say. Personally -- -- justice walks. After basis it was well if he wants 43. Extra bases eleven strikeouts and Tom. But he said he. Incredible lifeless hand eye coordination. Should illnesses. This will be what are your favorite players -- and you know Josh. I give a lot of credit counselor now you know they had David Chan was still here and they have very good that was greater and lesser -- I mean to get. The end of the second round twice when they didn't have first round draft choices to get those guys were. You know -- able. To two World Series brings peace. As I told -- they. -- two World Series rings of more than all those numbers up their own on the right field but Rafa have combined. Well fantastic both Peter and Chad I can't beat him I'm immensely grateful Chad you're series with path breaking. In startlingly did. Thank you sir that's that's that's the way of saying on their great month by a heart since -- in the impeachment and each one of them truly -- really it was. It was such a joy to go through in kind of CU exploring those archives Peter. You amass those archives so it was you go it was it was it was an -- unbelievable and there's little collaboration at least. One day one person at the ballpark. In war exit so we'll come up and says enjoy your columns in the people don't realize -- out -- to take great compliment to accomplish two. I maverick I use in my speech at Cooperstown. Your hopeful of the things and television so what -- remain statement. I think the yes that's eight you double -- that's. I guess that dwindling. Dwindling species but nonetheless. In terms of in terms of aspired to such a state we should all be so much. -- the data based on that particular Alex.