Sep 4, 2014|
We discuss the Ron Borges top 5 of all-time NFL coaches, and have the listeners contribute their thoughts and selections.
Transcript - Not for consumer use. Robot overlords only. Will not be accurate.
I took a second mortgage today and I bought both the globe and herald. -- just -- console Steve nowadays you know it's free online if you just read it on your tablet or computer the globe isn't. -- and -- to get a monthly thing of let's read there were as the delegate nearly an article front it's cheaper than what you paid today I know I'm not so I bought the global terror because I wanted to get both papers NFL preview sections. I like to go through wouldn't you know get the ink on your fingers and all that stuff and in the Boston Herald version today. -- Ron Borges makes his case for the five greatest coaches of all time in NFL history. By the way Ron Borges will join us at the bottom -- the next hour we'll talk about -- with him as well -- actors don't talk about him in his in his column today we'll talk with him about it as well. He's only got one active coach. It is all time -- top five. Might surprise some patriots fans the -- and -- is a lot of that got. Prize -- that we got to ask him about that there advocates. It's legendary and it's well known leave the back and forth between and so much back and forth. Of the foreplay before a report. From our rob or distort Bill Belichick we all know that story and there -- some tension there. And I never thought that that I would see you know -- we're just come up with a list. Have Bill Belichick as as one of the greatest coaches of all time as well the fibers noticeable. But I don't have a problem with the list arm problem number one at all. You've got Vince Lombardi on the list it's his -- on top five he's got Vince Lombardi. You've got Paul Brown well. Joseph Gibbs astute and well well -- -- in order a -- you've got to Marty. I -- gives up. And Paul Brown got Paul Brown to Walsh below wall war. Build knowledge -- -- -- -- the only the only does the top five by the way so I don't know 678910. Alaska when -- high water. One -- stands -- to me. We're struck an all -- Don Shula. There's George Allen who would you replace. Tokyo you replace -- I would absolutely proudly. I would probably replace Joseph Gibbs. Number -- even think about replacing Bill Walsh. I mean Joseph Gibbs as as Ron pointed out the only coach to win three Super Bowl with three different quarterback -- Which is pretty darn impressive that -- forget about it. But okay but let's look at it this way you had a game to win. The game went on a big game to win. And and obviously. -- Joseph Gibbs has more rings and Bill Parcells get a game a game to win and I mentioned him. Which go to Joseph Gibbs coach your team. Or bill -- -- to probably. Is our opinion of Gibbs is collared by the return of -- which was an abject failure and that's what Ron says you look at his numbers when he came back it was awful and and it really. Correctly probably colors your opinion but. Is Tom -- -- when I mean it's it's it's an old Ron wrote this -- it's difficult to. To come up with this list because you have to compare eras but he's basically stand you know you're gonna do this -- you gotta go you gotta go ahead and and jump -- there but. A lot of a lot of great coaches on the cutting room floor. In in defense -- Joseph Gibbs. He's not an iconic coach. Not like -- Lombardi. Not like a Landry. On you throwing Parcells. Every holiday -- He's a great great coach and I think he's worthy of the top five but he's got a bit -- you know I think when people think oh. You prototypical. NFL head coach you think Lombardi and you think Parcells. You pick -- guys like that you don't necessarily think of Joseph Gibbs the way he. Handled himself homicidal. I have I have nothing but respect for -- do nothing. -- great coach deserves to be in the hall of fame. Not think of Joseph Gibbs mine -- go to baseball cap with the with the gold are in them in the maroon cap and got the headset and -- think of John Riggins running in the hogs up front and you know a nondescript quarterback whether it's whether it's wise men or or -- in -- for that matter Doug Williams you know. Yeah he had some powers some some great power offenses. But what I would have put -- put them over. Some of the other guys -- mention now. I think for most younger football fans the name on the list that they're gonna have the hardest time with his Paul Brown because younger football fans probably don't know. The history of Paul Brown is as Ron points out. He won seven championships including three NFL titles and a ten year span. Obviously the the -- was a whole lot different back then but you can't take away from what the man accomplished. It was a total though it wouldn't wouldn't. Paul Brown can stay there forever Paul Brown if you. Is if you even think about -- in -- Paul Brown out of the top five you -- man -- has. Stadium. And I named after I'm done I'm fine with them. Mean think about this seventeen years in Cleveland. His record was 15848. And eight. Are right now if this is I know there was a guy who was. Who was arrested for urinating on the grave of Art Modell. But if you say if you look at look at it this way. Art Modell fired two of the top. Popular yeah. -- fire -- brought Bill Belichick. I'm not saying -- the right thing to do not thing I would do it. Guys go for. You brought up a whole bunch of names were all very valid but. But whenever you want to add one of his top five you gotta take one off this top five whether it's Landry whether it's Shula whether it's -- Whether it's Parcells. Jimmie Johnson if you want to I mean and whoever it is you wanna add to the list you gotta take one off yeah. And and that's what you got to decide -- guys got to go. What's easy having you look at it except no 144 Super Bowls and a six year period. An and I know he was not the the general manager at the time. Mean there -- a lot of talented players that. He endorsed that he. I'll push for the advocated for their drafting -- -- on and on the names go on hand and Lambert and blunt and Stallworth and law and Bradshaw Harris -- -- so many. -- championships in six years guys easy. Bordeaux a super ball easily put Hartnell on that list -- says bill doesn't -- in the top five and enduring Nowak at at -- that's a fair. That is a fair statement you can you can make an argument. That the story is not finished yet right. And if you wanted to put somebody else there you wanna put one of those legend -- in place of Bill Belichick. That's that's a fair statement. About losses the one guy that I would think of taking off the list. And it's kind of unfair to him. Well one I think forty niners all of the 1980s and early 1990s. At the Montana. I think Jerry Rice a pic of you don't running backs like Wendell Tyler -- Obviously he's bare walls she's rare but I wonder if Walsh. Is somewhat a byproduct of -- players. But if -- say that got -- Mike ganging Belichick is well well three NCAA championships and a ten in four lifetime. Playoff record. Hit it if anything Walsh would have to and Belichick would have to go -- -- abrupt but once again. I think you get some credit for. For being there when the geyser drafted. And and making the case for them you know. Bill Walsh is is one of the people who said they'll get -- get Jerry Rice. We are are what this guy only draft -- -- not like it was a it was a no brainer. I was -- like fifteenth or sixteenth the metal the first round. So. It wasn't like everybody knew that Jerry Rice was going to be great and everybody to note that. But I think Bill Walsh had a pretty good idea I don't I don't knock guys for having great players because I think the players benefit. And the coaches I was gonna say it it's kind of a mutual admiration society -- Look Bill Belichick absolutely gets the advantage of having Tom Brady is this quarter and all these coaches record players all of Tom -- probably a better place and he would say he's a better player for having had Bill Belichick is his coach. 6177797. ID 37 while talk to Ron Borges about his list. The guy has -- herald today his top five coaches of all time only one active coach is on the list that's bill ballots yet. We'll see which you guys think they'll between now and and Ron joins us at the bottom of the hour it's dale and Holley Sports Radio WEEI. Our number two dale and -- Sports Radio WEEI. Simon took a moment ago talked to Ron portraits of the bottom of the hour. His piece in the Boston Herald today -- the five greatest coaches in NFL history. From one to five. Only one active coach makes the list and it probably surprises some folks given the author of the piece that that's Bill Belichick. Art you give Novak that Joseph Gibbs on the list for for -- port is what is five greatest coaches of all time. And it's a step that I've used about Joseph gives many times three. Super Bowls three different quarterbacks that we look at that but none -- -- you'd consider like -- great quarterback and the best of the bunch probably was. Guys. Aren't the most probably. He once it a bit of a bunch of the bottom yet I art show. That's an important position you say -- -- can win three Super Bowls with with with three different quarterback says that's doing pretty well. Where's Bill Belichick. As a hall fame quarterback and some others. To the other hall of famers. The Bill Belichick oh. Look at that Tom -- hall of Famer yes. Logan -- Ty Law borderline -- Borderline but probably not. I'm not gonna get -- turning his kicker might make it but. Mature that people consider -- -- football players Joseph Gibbs -- altering -- to you know halting kicker but he right in an elderly NFL and he beat out. A look at to the list of hall of famers who played for. For Joseph -- so it didn't have a hall of fame quarterback but he did have John Riggins. Did have art monk. He did have. Darrell green to me he did have Russ Grimm that's for. To aim for. Hall of famers. Bill bill in the last ten years but Randy Moss and have -- -- Wes Welker -- well -- -- not -- you know eight you know he had such -- don't keep numbers for over a hundred years. I would agree -- -- no way no way -- I think he's got a chance dole way inhale when. 360. Catches away from a thousand you're just an abacus or whatever well because the Broncos it and what. I think what Michael's look at mattered not guys who meet them timeless and maybe I'll even give you Wes walker if you want as a may be. But as the definite that definitely. Want to credit markets and economic team right now -- it definitely got another one Darrelle Revis is it definite. -- he is I think so I would think so. You think however this is yeah I -- -- -- -- dog with the -- section of the -- got injured the most dominant defensive back for what five years. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- I mean you go back. Willie McGinest no Tedy Bruschi Nolan and -- of these guys that. -- hall of Famer -- -- so where where's you know Bill Belichick had the same gym where I now. And and that was his shell of himself as I did think it was well -- -- -- name guys who might be in the hall of -- -- was code yet to in years past his prime. Let -- here. But you always look at Michael. You -- this -- meal -- -- to look like that's like and I know it was so fun about it Greg OK you can -- about what -- fuel and you you can also say well. Look at what Joseph Gibbs did as a coach it'll lethal famers but guess what. He's the one who made them all the payments he -- Graham and John -- into a hall of fame. The coach make the argument. I mean it's it's it's like we said. Brady absolutely. Makes Bill Belichick looked like Altman coached. But Bill Belichick may make Tom Brady looked like Altman quarterback what job and started with the jets right before he went to -- the Redskins. As John Riggins -- before he went to Washington I I go look at the numbers by the it's an interesting. Question. -- what with the numbers and hot at eight compare from the jets to the Redskins for John -- a free spirit we know that now. From here and there are ups and yes -- that's great the great quote these job that. Supreme Court justice there budget I think Italy's loosen up. Yeah made it when you really when you break this down and think about. Great coaches. I cancers and there's there's not a coach you're gonna find out there who we say a whole thing -- that he can't nobody play. Well no you -- hall of fame coach and has had great had many good players. Well I think there's only what there's only one guy not that you have good players up with doctor Paul Brown Paul Brown of great players including Jim Brown. But. He built these things from scratch. So a lot of these coaches. A lot of the modern coaches. Don't really have that luxury because of the nature of the league now unless you're gonna. Take over an expansion team and you make every single selection and you you were there from day one for every draft pick and every free agent signing. Modern coaches can't say -- built from scratch. But you don't -- no probably probably could say that when he took over the Steelers in the same thing with Tom Landry in the cowboys and obviously. Vince Lombardi an indoor callous but even the case of the board I think Bart Starr was there before the -- -- got to count. So. I mean if we're -- we're gonna judge guys on. Like the players that they have they all lose out because all of got great play. Just remember now. If you if you add somebody -- -- list and we'll talk to -- about his list at the bottom of the hour at somebody got tick somebody off and that's fine. You just got to make your case spoke ways she act I wondered who Al from Everett wants to add to the list. -- -- Lol yeah it's ideal -- I don't sell out we can we get a lot of problems as a -- could be up to religion I looked up at the I got an early age all that deal which is -- I'm not a political one for I just I just I just think about it being virtually all the work I caught the end. I don't even know on the lists the total aggregate say -- I didn't -- another not -- -- missing here last year the five names for a quick Vince Lombardi Joseph Gibbs. Paul Brown Bill Walsh Bill Belichick. Okay that's that's that's good and I -- -- borders and bought some really has. Could meet in the bought -- anyway I get problem by. A couple of virtual. What an important -- will say what we got that -- going to be. Early eighties would -- maybe eighty -- Marino's OK so that you're you're you're you're you're distinct advantage to expect today we take. Apple quarterback could take a little -- in the vision. You're gonna get that championship game almost right into that does help the final four of identity of each conference. It jolted. Out of the automobile parts bell Joseph Gibbs and bill putt -- committee. The only guy in the -- In the ought to quote Bill Walsh. What ultimately it -- -- -- to guide the more Democrat won it not. It -- back. What do they still haven't. As of where many of -- priority -- top -- but it may have to average it out over the water testing team it was can't. Apple wait a bit bold contemporary. Figure out -- are all -- -- want all built sentence. Figured this -- and how we thought that was insane and that. Thank you don't and -- quarterback you know giants happens on that team policy -- -- Let's think Carl banks. Harry Carson. While there are hoping it -- about it. There was no problem little no wait -- Bill Parcells didn't wrap those players and question all caught up. When asked how he didn't -- those players. Go according to double. Michael -- I wouldn't doubt you got a big game trying to Art Bell. Bill -- all of sabres were only judgment about what. Which dropped by the -- felt that you didn't -- -- or borderline get the most actually issued a playoffs. Based on what we acknowledged knowing that -- just wants to -- by the -- don't draft a -- -- you're right you're right bill but I -- part but Bill Parcells drafted some players for Bill Belichick and George young. A draft the players for Bill Parcells. Absolutely look I got I got a culture to like consider adding to Ron's five persons list. And I love Bill Parcells but he's not one of I mean Chuck Noll Tom Landry on you Don Shula would be the three games would all want this list before Parcells would for me. For Parcells and before Belichick no I'm just saying if I I added a guy who's not on the list to the list I got three guys I. Your either here or run the same thing and we'll we'll talk to one about 1520 minutes. You know. It is a different game he made he made the note that -- there's some party. Had to deal with things that. The Bill Belichick didn't and Bill Belichick has to do with things that were totally would have been totally foreign to. Event from party -- as recently as. 1990. Think about reference that 19911992. There was no such thing as all out free agency. At some animal called plan B freeagent. They'll pretty much the guy either -- free agency was essentially decide in the without getting to -- that the nasty details a plan B free agency was. Your team wanted you to be appreciated they wanted they wanted -- gone so you can -- you can Colombia free -- but good -- we don't want -- anyway. Like all out free agency there were -- cap and have to worry about any of that stuff. So it's almost like Bill Belichick and other coaches. You know post 1993. Are a different category than those guys before 1993 in some of them. Kind of a balance. Where were on the verge of -- there is a vote there are -- Don Shula got out just before or right around that time. And Chuck -- had retired before. That Tom Landry had been pushed out before so it's almost. When Joseph Gibbs Joseph Gibbs was before free agency when he came back in the free agent Aaron. I don't know it was free agency I don't -- you also honored for what it was just a different game -- -- you almost had -- to be fair about it it's a great. A fun discussion for radio but to be fair body almost had to say before 1990 before 1993 and after 93. Extra points out the Jerry Jones fired to hall of fame coaches. Jimmie Johnson and Tom Landry didn't buy it K here's another -- -- -- out for a visit cannot add to it. Do you have to win a Super Bowl you have to win multiple Super Bowl to be considered guests for the top five top -- -- thanks so I think -- I don't with quarterbacks will go to the obvious one we look at. Is Marino. Great quarterback all of the all these records all these numbers. But only went to one Super Bowl didn't win it so for some people that knocks him down the list of great quarterbacks in doctor Johnny considered a great coach without a title. In my well. About -- While Marv -- -- -- hardly be a great coach -- was I think you can you can be considered a great coach but not maybe not as yet all time top five great. Marv Levy's clothes. On Corey L but grant know about -- a lot of -- hole. You look II -- I'm willing to do agree with you that Dan -- one of the greatest quarterback whoever lived without a race. Which you can't be one of the greatest coaches whoever lived without. You can't beat the entire your entire roll. Do I need to do I need to give you my thesis. 722. Pages on how Marty Schottenheimer was underrated it is truly an all time great -- need to -- that -- What are you having trouble selling that to a publisher. Of this guy gets better 22 pages here on Marty shot not good to narrow it down at 622 pages maybe. Or eleven or -- estimates it has not. A hundred Eric -- colleague William blog from there. I mean at -- brings up a -- that never gets brought up Tom -- Mean you think of John Madden. Job but I go mad and over floors I'm just saying there are other names that we haven't even mentioned yet we're certainly considered. Great coaches but to your question. You've got to have a time to be considered an all time great like a -- on the other side of history it's won four straight conference titles. Hard leaving Buffalo Bills aren't straight. Heart that especially now it's time to waste no place my friend. -- who say greater cultural throwing out who's coaching now is get to a Super Bowl rings. Whose team is parental parental. Is often in the playoff and I birdied number -- offered often in the points on that will be much Tom. Do you think what you think of three idol season and Mike Tomlin and went. Everyone everywhere with another when they lost it that's right that's a that's a conflict but he's our title reject terrorism and talking about. The -- back problem machine regret. Retired anyway resolve and deal. Announced that they lost that huge problem in all but. I consider him an all time great even though he has -- championship and Marv Levy does not all time great which I believe what I had wanted to who has a better coach. I don't have a problem adding guys to this list and taking guys off obviously. I can't -- out of the top five list of all time was never one. Can he can make your top ten. Get a guy who never won a Super Bowl will make your -- it. I won a championship in the case of Paul Brown if I if might take these five and add five to the list. And and really easy we talked about Landry -- Shula. Re all -- cells -- cells and -- war palaces on there. There's five there is there it's a top ten in and I don't have those guys on that list at that point. Look for George Seifert now that's a much better. They'll be able 500 page treatise on George Seifert bill -- I had one of those guys I don't. -- got a championship. Cold wind do you have a -- of any of those ten we just named. Are trying to I don't either and certainly not Levy certainly not bud grant. -- in the hall of fame. Ladies and a hall of -- he's moderation and what you. A bug -- -- -- -- I believe. My -- got to be able time for what he did the money years he coached who's got a -- Johnson Boston your next on Sports Radio dale and Holley. You don't get page on. -- outlook for the occupant that you while. Football I think a sign of a replay lockquote. Is doing better than expected. And for the past decade in Belichick under achieved. Noted that this Super Bowl favorites won -- favorite in the league year written Euro yen. I think under in Ottawa and play a little map when we hear. You know that's when real short in my start but he didn't in the -- and imbalance he looks like one of those teams bring to the play according laps before. Once they go down -- be like one vote and I felt in all that that would belong in the playoffs. Where you say hundred -- underachieving as it's. About a way about him for a continued bud grant and Marv Levy. Our herbal and all facts and -- pro football fan but under achieved is a tough it's a tough way to go when you thought when he's day. Your team got to the AFC championship game and laws. Should that team have you said the under achieved in the should've won the game. They should've gone to this approval now the go to the Super Bowl and lose there under achieved because they were Super Bowl favorite didn't win. Like a certain Glendale Arizona yeah I mean it's it's tough to talk about under achievement when you get to that level when you're when you're playing those games now you're one and done all the time. If you have a a record against the use the iron that's embarrassing. You're just a bad post season coach. I think you can -- Schottenheimer. -- -- It doesn't listen to -- -- -- go first of all you know skip over prologue skip over the you know the first 23300 pages to go to pay 378. Really break down how we are really not as bad I really crystallize. It flies crystallizes the absence of of -- -- -- Tom Coughlin. Does Tom Coughlin deserves some love in this list were talking about all time great no but he'd be ahead of Levy in -- grant got up -- and that put and that separation talked about and you know after 1993. I think that's exactly when he when he left BC and in went to startup Jackson though. I think the the modern era great coaches. He absolutely has to be consider -- -- An interesting topic and it and when I read this morning I've I I've looked at Ron's arguments for each of the five. They all made sense to me even if I would shuffle a guy here -- there. Well we'll see who. In on second thought he might leave off the list and somebody he might add to what will talk to Ron Borges he'll join us in just a couple of minutes. Back to your calls we've got some other things the -- talked about as well. It's dale and -- Sports Radio WEEI.