Jul 7, 2014|
Former Red Sox GM and current Cubs president of baseball operations Theo Epstein discusses the strategy of building through the draft in Boston and Chicago, and how the landscape and opportunities have changed in his new role from his old one. Epstein lifts the curtain on the decision-making process involving a number of selections with his former club, among them 2011 draftees Blake Swihart, Henry Owens and Mookie Betts.
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The scouting and player development machine. That notion was going by a former Red Sox GM Theo Epstein at the time he was introduced to that role in 2002 into his mantra present a landmark change in the way to the Red -- to business. When that his arguably guided the waved the Red Sox function even now three seasons removed from Epstein departure for Chicago. Without seems cubs at Fenway Park this week. It seemed to work well time to check in with Epstein about the impetus for that key concept in how he's approached the task of building the cubs' farm system for the long well. What -- to some details about Epstein last draft with the Red Sox in 2011. But first will open at this honey come up with the notion of the machine in housing -- his approach to team building with the cubs. I remember here. Get ready for the press conference. They -- in November vote to deciding what I -- -- day one of the points so -- and they. But I want to quality clear that we are gonna. Really focus on and on. Building through young players vote on scouting and so on their development and at the same time you know. Get. A way just as important or get away from the notion that. You know we you -- -- had the pleased. The media for the in November and December and make a big splash and go for the immediate future. I felt like. It was really hard to do both in this town and so to be to be clear where priority. As it turned out we. You know we. We did fairly well immediately because it seems that ought to cover all of -- -- the farm system that we want to build and it -- time -- -- -- -- we want to build but I think. Try every every new GM you know this press conference we're gonna build this guy and player development. Really dislike for away the emphatic about it that this could really be -- and if you look at some things we did that. The first winner has set the stage for. The development farm system later on QB we if you lower the payroll. And the fifteen dollars from two of those -- you walked away from. Cliff Floyd. News you know reasonable -- -- forest who's locked away for me it's six precursor of the strategy that we use. To court picks over the next decade. And you know really it and changed her leadership and played well and ultimately it is scouting and really look. Look that are scouting and player development department as the foundation for -- can build and yours. What do you like do you do you have a similar I did you have a similar notion of charter member I was at a press conference where you're introduced as the as the cubs. Jim but I think that I taken 6 AM flight or something sort of forget. Your precise terms of phrases so you're call you know or is there a notion that you. If used to kind of frame what you're trying to accomplish with the cubs in similar fashion. Yeah I think here we we really talked about. Not using shortcuts and there was only. Only one way to do it and that was that filters -- in player development and focus on -- players and develop. Internally. You know -- way and ultimately steady flow prospects. Who it forma core. The future championship two years really folks I'm going. On accomplishing sustainable success you know that's -- it became pretty clear. But as familiar -- with the talent that we're inheriting. And some of the challenges that that that that presented -- after a few months here. Became clear that there was also sort of a financial waiting game as well that we would have tremendous resources but there are some restrictions in place immediately be. It is circumstances you know anyone's control so I talked about parallel path a little bit in the press conference -- -- you know we are trying to do. These sort of -- each Major League season. Something sacred we view it. We certainly pay attention to that the that the greater emphasis was on it. Building for the long term and have those -- pass conflict if we err on the side -- the long term the big picture you know players. And you know I can do that and over again that probably. Would have avoided this talk of apparel passed because it became clear after a few months and we're gonna have to be even more single minded. About to rebuild. Immediate plans to the and they might turn out to be the best that ever happened to us because. We really. You know we recognize that we have a few years when. We'd be in here young talent acquisition motive is focusing. -- on the cusp of realizing the fruits of those labors. Well in in thinking about how you've gotten to the point of being -- -- -- of those labors and is interesting -- when when you mention Cliff Floyd. And at the beginning of the strategy to -- com addicts. Because that's something that you used a lot in Boston and you know specifically with. It's interesting to think about your last draft in Boston 2011. Which is suddenly kind of coming to this interest in -- to fruition with -- that's a fifth rounder that -- coming up but that was also the year where you guys. In -- with their first four picks all of which were the result of I'm letting free agents -- good ones they're ready and Adrian Beltre and Victor Martinez walk. You've got four picks that ended up being Matt Barnes. Blake why Hart Henry Owens Jackie Bradley junior all of whom are pretty interest in guys right now. Of how important was that structure how central was that. To kind of be the strategy that you were forming in terms of saying. Yeah we're going to be a team that -- walks away from really good free agents. Because it's getting those two picks back at a time. Particularly in a draft like 2011 which was a great one in terms of talent depth. Is really a way that gives us a fast way to to load up our farm system with with impact talent. Yeah it was fundamentally important I think you know makes sense to see if you look at so. But let's say that every team. It is -- cure structure every -- it is back in number decks and -- Each. The draft orders -- that every team is certainly cool equal bites of the apple. If you then focus. As -- every team does on trying to build the best possible scouting department values you bring in the best out -- and use. Spent a lot of time on resurgence of the best prophecies possible and in use -- spared no expense to and processes. You can get in it in advantage that way you know. Great doubt they're better than its doubts -- in the eucharist doubts about it at bats and and you know finding all the information whether it's gathering information performance analysis medical information and make -- information is better than. Using you know partial information which is better than using very little information so. You know that the the best doubt that processes such -- building the best outing. Machine you can build does give you an advantage. That's. It's. I think did it falls shy of the advantage that you get from just having. More more. More -- arrows to shoot discredit the target. You know lord -- more bites of the apple -- from mixing metaphors here but yes so. What kind of advantage can you get by building. In the standings gathering operation verses you know well this is an organization I don't know maybe it may -- do you go. 10% better chance that it if inspectors point 8% -- in -- relatives who were scouting operation. You know a 50% chance that. But if you can set yourself up. You know more. 21 routers that are on -- we did over a decade more. More picks and in in the first two rounds including they would and the other team. That in and of itself can provide a much much greater I mean party. If you to pick instead of instead of one you -- you or the increase increase your odds -- socially back under pursue it relative. -- future competitions so. We try to do both right and we tried to over ten years we spared no expense in it. I'm surprised that more man hours on the draft and then any other single thing that we in this report and think about the draft and we learn from our mistakes more in the draft the Euro and really focus on refining prophecies and had I thought we had great doubts and a great processes -- product we've built accurate and department. And we in the also had more -- and because that is important walked away. Free agents. Which by the way also has the added benefit of keeping you away for the most part of you know out which can't albatross contract because. Players in their thirties maybe not as much -- that whereas now but still players in the thirties you know decline in the paying for past performance. He paid peak prices for. Players declined. For most of my time there -- stay away from guys trouble. We didn't toward the end but. So it is the added benefit of this increasing your budget -- you know giving you more about the apple -- now. Being away from. Expensive decline fewer bytes of the rotten -- -- -- happened here back at that that the young ripening apple here it's that the older cotton. Rotten apple and then you know and you combine that link to excellent scouting operations. In. We did very well respected. Well let's let's talk a little bit about that 2011 draft because it's it's one that you haven't been able to kind of directly enjoy the fruits of that you've been left to you know from -- appreciate. What are bitten fruit fifth suspect well see you're mixing metaphors earlier but once he got overall it's really -- -- sustained. Up and yet in -- in terms of that in terms of the scouting process for that year. You know how when did you become aware that that was a very deep draft with the with impact to be found you know well well beyond just the top of it. Probably. About thirteen months before the draft and it it it's -- it is typical pattern in the draft where. You know about a year out the draft so it looks great of those really excited and and so going into. That shortly after the 2010 draft day -- urged her after the like those they have to 2009 draster excited about the 2010 draft looks great -- -- you get closer and closer. And you're starting to worry human now and the players -- model and start to see the players -- policy see their blemishes. Then all of a sudden people this draft the 2010 draft not to -- wait till next year 2011 looks really get -- know the -- also -- for 2010 draft. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- But as usual. The next one the backup quarterback the 2011 -- in the future could really get that that was the airway and even upon a closer inspection via. We got there in the air to the draft it's stood up and we just became increasingly excited and increase the optimistic about that draft because there over there are a lot to get players and long before her -- a draft meetings lined up support be held this. The excitement of the area -- them about their areas and across sectors. Deep talent going out in myself -- it was clear it was in the years ago. Matt Barnes was -- first pick that year -- draft that was really rich in in college pitching college right handed pitching. Interesting bandwidth rate because he got drafted one pick after Sonny gray who's who's been OK I think. How how how how. Easy I mean I don't want to exaggerate this but was it any easier thing to be able to evaluate that. Apples to apples if you will and given the given the confluence of of college pitching talent that was in that draft and kind of lining up -- pretty clearly. I think it was the they're really our -- was across the demographic that it just so happened that it it felt that we're we're focusing on. You cadre pitchers in the group. That we. But if you look back it was a clear that. Young men and -- Bradley. Would be gone before we in. You know you're kind of lamenting that in the industry. We as we add those two above the group. The grade Barnes. -- group that the industry and although although you know not far ahead. Those Diebler is first to to draft over again the -- is opposite that this or that the and often -- any good fortune as -- problems in decision making in the draft and then it became pretty clear that we need to focus in on that group of -- Barnes and Meyer. And as a really it's in the we spent. We spent a couple of hours every day four week that -- -- sorting through that group and trying to get them in the right order is we've -- Pretty sure of that -- stick with -- you're street players and is one of those times when there was there was real difference -- -- market go through who in the room had -- above the movement. Room but. That certain testing history these guys. You know upgrade -- school even knows where. Is gonna go to Vanderbilt -- use. A well known guy well doubted there Agilent and agree that this is really query to do -- only. Feel these are questions about amber were size and what law and well -- there at the time. Buyer right the other factor not -- Barnes be right there back there was so we. We all got repeated look it really dissect it to see quite a bit then -- we. Has very interesting history read because we drafted him that school for the team and box and in the living room back in tried to get back in the house and it was. That's the story for another dead that that apple was it in and of itself so. Room through the split into three different directions and turned out Braylon. You mentioned right before effective as a decision between. Mired in violence in and that they can Barnes. Really this is deciding factor -- build the consensus room misses more belief that is that your starter. -- -- -- So when you once you have that you know it's. Kind of well established college pitcher. Met your next take ends up being I kind of risky category quote unquote. Of thought of high school catcher but with with a pretty huge ceiling and a guy -- -- -- heart was the fact that you would already taken of you know two to your mind it was it was located kind of take a shot on the lottery I'm kind of that kind of lottery ticket -- -- yet certain diversifying your portfolio. In the draft is mentioning that because. Yeah that is strong. Strong or urged to do it. -- to make you feel better about aircraft. Right handed pitcher every day has the position player. Freezes up to -- to college position -- economic data out of school pitchers they shot you know we've all right handers draft left handers but the reality that'll. Really believe it's not like a stock portfolio and I don't I don't believe that. Crucial in the draft it just makes you feel better probably. -- -- to some -- the anxiety fielder casting calls on. Commodities to the -- -- feel better out greatly diversified but the reality is you're just trying to make the best they keep on and there are going to be draft where. The best -- -- Every time happened in the top -- high school. I'd -- where -- players -- or opposition players. Also. We really -- But the emphasis -- making the best -- and no matter how hard you try I think I think throughout most citizens subconsciously. That. Or ten seed today diversified creeps and. We felt all along just doing some some mock drafts and insinuations and strategizing. Some games there we felt like that would be the pick. Where we drafted. An upside has book require. And -- moments. If it came down two of the guys through a word or Taylor buried. It's Carolina. Why -- -- I think Josh spell out of that draft. Right yes yes he was the first pick of the second round that you. Yeah due to September I went to doubt them. Lou a trio were analyze that to make it to connections -- and there. And like hundred degrees and for no matter like and so on the net and and at that that. As a leader in the ballpark -- another like my fourth one of the again there I got a text that says that. Spelled advisor dissident letters saying that -- -- on -- college not the Catholic classic. And we didn't really believe it that we two. You know might be true and and I would or what it meant was yet it feels -- -- for a ton of money deeper in the draft board reside in force anyway. So we said and to decided. -- and Swire was somebody that that. Came into increasing focus -- a great job by. Again Mahoney and then in the outcome and Fenway and we worked them now. Once in both sides play this even in games easily in one played and coached in alms which -- And then in the we -- up on the plate he would had a sore arm. For some of the years of their acquired the kid was now seventy yard flash. -- earlier this set school career. But there are more like 45. For some of the years so we want. Get him in the box and get elected shoulder work up on the play. He's not. He'd he'd he'd. He was really strong kind of from -- forms them through Israel but he yet but -- really sold out yet and much muscle right I think he was 165 when you guys signed him. Yet he uses -- the priest in the kid who denies frame and we want to really look at them up close and CO bought him off the bat with a with Pakistan and -- -- both sides of play in the and the more yet -- know on the more work more like some accuse the best period in the draft we could -- strain. There is clear atlantis'. We are banking on the plus armor doubles and coming back. And yet in Korea was schism and actions on the play in the aptitude work ethic he has some. Torre got to know the more we really want them there moaning in the prospect group and -- Are just as accurate job well. One of his teammates on not on team USA on the eighteen and under team USA team was I was Henry Owens. You know who at that point I mean he must have. You must have looked like an unusual profile for high school pitcher you know just all arms and legs the pictures of him more actually kind of funny he looked like he looked like a -- fourth in anything. But -- giant. One that. Yet EU I didn't use so we spent a lot of time talking about it that the Haskell -- Our approach is that we we won that really standards. In some in some areas that are important to us because the busters so -- let go urgently felt like if we're gonna bet on Haskell pitcher. Less left -- -- missiles somebody that checked all our boxes that does the things that we thing through lots of trial there through you know collectively that we feel are really important so you know it -- -- pitching. It wasn't enough to navigate armored that was in this that we really wanted. You know size project ability atlantis'. Make up. Command of the fastball systems some -- Movement or others -- in this qualities to the fastball currencies the president abilities in the almost as protection. -- C. Feel for that changeup. Was sort of intelligent inactive. Work ethic we. We we need to arm to work well on -- arm action Agassi you know. He's in the deliveries are beautiful deliveries in delivery network so we had a lot of cyclist wrote we look for as fitting in. Must have been a hell of a scouting report that it could be there and it has to follow it. That's why we didn't take much as the pitching in the top of the draft and you know the -- according -- -- the it's -- -- rare pitcher that can -- boxes and and so Owens. Was not one to immediately allow you with this stuff. But but the closer you looked at -- the -- you guys -- -- boxes use yet these. You use another really gangly kid is huge huge kid that. Very skinny -- masses the massive hands. And really showed. Command via this year's show that abilities in the ball it goes soft curve balls in the ball well. I have to change. It will look in his fastball through better. Probably the -- -- circuit this summer before. It is senior high school. But it we've we've he came to -- as well that summer. Is the first time that. You know sort of problematic if it is you. C then. Is that that. Going in this equality it is about almost invisible fastball. -- Our but it is. With the delivery in the deception and in the wake him out of it and and that natural qualities. It all play it's it's not a all that. That you it's that are very good is sort of the qualities that. Weren't obvious the first that you could see evidence you know the really good changeup and in the development curve ball but combat -- those. On them early in -- cross checker group. On the oh -- leadership. They've certainly at -- last year's. My records in the world. Forget it. Some. You know it. All on this kid and news just you know. Projections but and not you could buy into your right now and the really fun loving it with great makeup who who -- it and it became clear that. Stood out as someone that we can get overthrow the government amateur. And and college opportunity that so he's had a special catcher. This -- and department because. Summon them you know I actually. So wired and knows both but when you when you really believe it has go to it and a lot of projection in the involved and he's not serve an obvious jumps out entire industry those. Those -- of specials and and Austin's you know he's developed and look forward to go to the Owens like her battery. Do some damage at least it's important. They've they've done that a couple levels now so networking working up together and then. You say that you don't wanna diversify but it ended up just being a funny first four picks because. The last category is who ended up with a college position player. Who had been who was an interesting who has an interest in another kind of interest in category that you guys took in a number of instances in 20102011. College guy who had a done something really special in his career at a major university. Jackie Bradley junior would be in the the most outstanding player of the of the college World Series into it as a as a sophomore in and let down -- as a junior. I mean what what drew you to lots of Bradley at that point. Yeah you know I think that does that does reflect. To -- to read we have about you know the most recent data point not necessarily being the most important it is to get that back in and you. And you look at the the draft. From from sort of the radical stamp -- right here. You're you're trying to generate as much information you can about these players and an ideal world -- have a career in Europe of that but obviously that's not possible so. You want is as much -- you can about the play as much information as much time to get another player as much. Feedback -- -- you want them to you wanted to tell you who he has by his performance and by observation. And sometimes in the draft you know all you tell you really get. Are. The few months you know these for -- player one of pops up and those circus circuit that you get a few months and you. Yet and board games and you gotta make. Very important judgment very important protections as scientists precious few data points. And there's always I think it's that human tendency you know is focused on the most recent data points in game. Maybe disproportionate. Emphasis of this what's precious in the mine was most familiar it's when they're extrapolating it -- the it's hard to get away from those most recent data points so. And Bradley's case. You know he would Denton. One of the very best about the very best college players in the country as a sophomore. And on base machine had driven the ball on the captured some power unbelievable defender. Big time performer lead in national title. Make up everything and he was someone -- Because that projected to go in the top part and picked. In the draft and then he -- down and junior years hurt is battling. The wrist injury right certainly I'm a yeah ended up you know you -- -- to sixty to eighty years something in this clearly wasn't himself. But you know that became an opportunity to your -- convicted on the player was as. You know his whole career up at that point and we in the capacity here you are so convicted when he was so it. It's something that we always remind ourselves this is -- get as much information. And in this some good opportunities to be out of players who just happens. As bad -- that we took. We -- that -- so far as we would you know we got a lot of players knowing that. We didn't have enough information yet but we can really column over the summer and and and -- more about the players. If sometimes. The thing where there in the country he points to two months want to -- if you. If you could follow in the summer you'd really double. The amount of time it's got these kids and under the old system doesn't work anymore under the new system but so we have we employed that is basically trying to not look at. June 6 -- June 7 whatever the draft was as sort of in an end point is just. You know 11 point in the spectrum when he invited to play and goes far back at you and the bridges -- -- you can get the most information so Bradley the guys that. You know we are thrilled to -- again at that point in the grass is -- career. Had you had between here like it warrior than -- this enables me mother first. Over and getting a little bit deeper into into your early -- that was a year I mean you're you guys must have been mindful that there were. -- changes coming to the collective bargaining agreement but at that point they were on certain nonetheless it seemed like that year. There was there was a real feeling of but they were gonna we're going to go for some serious healing. In some of these some of these subsequent rounds. Knowing that the opportunities to kind of flex some financial muscle with signing bonuses might not exist going forward so that led to two interest in elections. A little bit later. Fifth round markets Lynn that out of us out of over in high school in Tennessee. And then I believe the eighth round you took -- quite as -- -- I guess you know what what drew you to those two guys end ultimately where their fates intertwined on on the Davis signing deadline. No not not necessary. We beat because aside and vote and -- in the end. -- the dollar figure matters that the players can tell you themselves if they want assigned but I have acted the design process and there are well served long involved side opposite the move peca is clearly he'd. Really confident and wanted wanted to one of the stars professional careers and help that. He played other sports including famously bowling and that we could spread the -- Over five years but it is. You need to fight to school with -- with Boeing scholarships to be athletic and attack them. But it clearly wanted to sign and really the big decision would -- US and that's signing process news it was. It was where do we put him on the board and we ended up moving him to a place on the board are virtually assured again in that I think. You've seen more as like eight this time around dad for the team that liked them and beyond its means it didn't and and bit stunned the scouting process and and some other factors. That made him extremely attractive to move. Took place where we are virtually assured again is saying quite as it was it was. That was -- dramatic -- process yeah actually came to. Came to Boston for the physical undecided and they are trying to convince in the sign and out of in the room. Good cop bad cop pulled the good cop whose -- Dependency apps. The intensity -- was just saying cause he -- -- -- -- -- -- exactly but -- depicting it it came out we that we were trying to convince this guy. In the end it is something they pride in do I don't think he I don't think he was under Parcells negative -- -- while on the back of law. And we made mistakes in the past when you view it as if if the players signed because of the money the players -- because he convinced in the almost do now. In probe also reached the point yeah and where. News cleared that is our -- -- -- and it is -- was probably more play and that footballers Saturday and and -- we've -- let let him let him walk. Is pretty unbelievable job by that department it any -- in. All the cross checkers. In our prophecies. On -- because these you know. Not a not a typical serve icicles. Underside -- Is really atlantis' and the actions. That -- -- to and then. Do you accurately than men do. Further evaluation and some from the proprietary testing that we developed years news really. Clear that this is if -- Not only at -- -- has the atlantis' ultimately have the arm. -- like the feel of the game but. Also was was pretty -- in terms hand eye coordination -- -- in the -- the way it worked. As well so. The convergence of those there is split. Oh in the group smartly to move up to the board took place career virtually assured again. You're that was your last draft with the Red Sox -- one in which you employed a number of fascinating strategies. Some of which are no longer available to you. Now that you're with the cubs I mean that there are ways in which you can kind of make them. Available to you as you did it for instance this here in selecting guy like Kyle shore were. Taking who was willing to take a little bit less -- the slot allocation -- able to reallocate some of that money to getting more impact takes a little bit further down. But nonetheless the idea of just being able to take the best guy on the board for you -- pick after pick wasn't quite there in the -- is is no longer they are quite the same way. How different is it. Why men having that having access to the top picks in the draft. Something did not easily -- right you have to live through the losing you know from the get there but. But nonetheless something did expose you to these tantalizing guys where you're no longer have to kind of at least in theory choose between outside and probability -- -- can say let's go for both. Vs no longer being in the universe where it's easy to add on those extra picks with com with with freeagent compensation. I'm in -- and you know the idea of adding on multiple picks or being able to. Bust through slot later in the draft in order to get other impact guys. But certain to two separate. Issue I think as far as the rule changes. It just creates a different landscape. One. Pride not quite as interesting as the old one but really they're not quite as fascinating as the old one by insisting on the last and it certainly challenging and it just it just means you have to do. Understand that fully. Find these strategies and put yourself in the best competitive position that you possibly can using different techniques so now it's it's. It. It's sort of a value analysis up on the draft he has this certain. Amount of currency which -- and in an accident dollars and and you have to. Most importantly dollars -- -- system works and in yet to make a value judgment is strategic and employs strategy and every single tax so. -- decide just how important players this summit value your present it is going to take a little bit less and you can redeploy that elsewhere. And understand the landscape of the draft fully see in. Get the most bang for the buck in the universe where. Year. Options that are possibilities. Are fairly restrictive so. It's still really fun and and it's still old provides opportunity for competitors not just through scouting but also news strategizing. But it's just. The that the upside impact isn't quite there to the same extent I personally prefer the old system. Because it. I like. Flexibility and freedom and I think in free well I think organizations should be allowed to. Decide how to allocate their resources how important players players are to relatives. Like the free agent market and if Fatima to try to visually payroll by fifteen million dollars in via Alex is that to the draft for young players that I think it it should be able these so but. That's neither here nor there has not as popular if anymore and so. Is his support fully understand the way it works and and -- it is strategizing. Excuse. The difference now with with picking up. Top of the draft and down the bottom at about the first on every year place we hope to be soon here in Chicago. I think -- it does it yeah I think obviously you have if you -- got every player you know in in Boston we are these. Fifteen that point players that we used -- He wants and then recognize that they were going to be -- -- and move on. Coming here here we don't do that steroid. After this one looks so we get. We we get more looks that we buy can spend more time on the very best players -- we get to -- it's notable -- better so when you're. Making a decision between you know out for bird. Appreciate it and there there are no -- -- -- Nick -- we've we've. We spend so much time with players feel like you know -- you know or should know in these virtually everything about them and so it's. If you can take a holistic approach you can you can serve. Dive deep that you possibly want that in any one single area you can spent a lot of time with -- literally. Get to know them personally and it's funny were you picked up top of the draft that. Players you know their agents that that they want is spent time them right to pick and -- did it but that was chartered are going to get an audience. So it's just it's it's a little bit different exercise. And by -- but I do you feel allowed India and other players more people in Israel in no excuse for preventing up top in the draft is it to think the information. That structure. All askew kind of thought I've got to get up a -- of your time as you're well aware since you've been on the receiving end of this. So all kind of wrap up with with this kind of general thought about about the draft that you've been able of that last stress that you had with the Red Sox. As well as the drafts that you had going for with a with the cubs it's really interesting to see a guy like you Chris Bryant right who's just kind of turning the -- with -- minor league world on its -- already. Up in triple -- he's like had he has like 300 homers as seniors the futures game. And you know is is it surprising to you. Well I guess. It is it surprising to you to see you know to see how quickly you're able to make an impact. Fine you know kind of getting these guys you know getting this talent with the cubs it's already you've you've taken it and sort of moving so quickly through this system. Nearing the point where it will be able to make a Major -- impact. Is that more surprising or is the fact that three years out from the 2011 draft you know that -- hat is is already starting to make its impact. On the Red Sox at the Major League level. You know look I think. I think will will know we've made an impact here in Chicago land. When our young players are sprayed champagne that's that's that's that's that's what it really matters and you know. We didn't consider. -- order after the 05 draft in Boston -- through draft. About the success until album bombed Pedroia and -- friendship. And so that's when you really know you didn't impact. They also that's also about Chicago I think if if if you're going to suffer through these kinds of -- level. In part. To get the benefit. Draft position bigger. Bonus pool you better make an impact you know I mean if we're it'd be it'd be irresponsible. And and complete failure to. Just make a moderate impact in in the draft especially their respect if if you have to suffer at the bigger fan bases these guys seasons in order to get those picks so. Yeah obviously I'm thrilled what Chris Bryant throws out workers. But we should be right remedy should be it should be changing the landscape. Of the franchise because our. Spent a lot of time on the draft and it is Europe there are a lot of consequences. Is that have to pick up that had to be human and then. With the Red -- mean. Yeah you never know it it. There there were we went through a little bit lean period in and -- -- and I am writing code that the as -- wanted and there's. -- change in the leadership but it must you know came in and that. I I feel like. We the does that eleven draft was almost like ten years in the making it was sort of the product. Lot of great people. Coming in that and department over. A lot of process you that we are. There. And certain belief that -- -- so old important. Strategies that we developed and and it was it was really neat to see it can all come together and really grade drafts. And you know the rest actually did benefit of that. You know there are there but it -- on the way when it hits but. It's. You know I guess for -- of wood bats in particular for high school players to be out within three years certainly. Not something that we anticipated. You know you you really. Start thinking about here the college players more immediately and when -- might break and when they make an impact is positioned it might take a step -- -- preside and I've got players it is. You draft them. He tried -- Jews -- one mitigate the risk understanding that that. You know as the players have these huge -- straight and put them away and turn them over to player development and then refocus once you know once they get they applaud applies -- -- on the news they're going to be about that I can impact about this -- is is awesome. And the fact that he's beaten. That he beat some of the ecology to the that you have to as a shock but. Those god don't sleep on you know some votes from the college yet to come as well and -- wire knowing that could be. You can beat three really really impact -- -- -- draft. They're great kids do you know which is something that. Is really important thing to be part in that clubhouse culture or. We'll leave off with this and I'm not going to make you answered but since we begin with semantics I think it is interesting to note that. That we -- arrived. And last year I think was Timbuktu was was perhaps the most dramatic representation of the notion of of the terribly misunderstood mission of the bridge. Inviting time for prospects to mature. In the Red Sox engaged in a lot of short term signings to permit that time in this here is a really interesting case study from here that your you know you're you're probably only observing from afar. Out of the end of the bridge where those guys are now are now being being given the opportunity to -- tour. I had no run through the water and hoping hoping it's shallow self and an interesting time and I think the best -- metaphor you prefer not to. Not to not to delve into even though I think that it as I said it was actually a really good one -- first time it did. It'd -- -- the it's one thing to develop new players in the other -- give of their time. Well and then ultimately defeated the big league level -- -- what it's certainly on the other endeavors of the respect and them not to talk about the -- -- on the I'm talking about here in Chicago it's you know baseball America rankings in the -- don't mean any thing. Effectively in the draft doesn't mean -- thing and -- you in. That develop some of the big league level well of them come together at the right pieces to to form. You know winning club that -- -- it was a world championship but. Looking from far off -- say that's -- The the organization and has a real identity. And future credit issue you know ownership and then -- It on the -- scouting department and then Crockett in the player development department and in the ten years that we you know that we Spencer getting it to that point as well that think you know. I think everyone knows the -- -- and acquire and develop young talent and integrate that into winning situation -- and so if this year it turns out to be -- -- -- processors some as young players they -- ultimately -- they wanna -- I think. Everything and -- -- attention and will recognize and understand that. The global benefit in the future report from certainly easy to do with the Red Sox have now and how they operate in the -- that they have and and see more homegrown players. Friendship and support the securities and vision and frankly we envisioned here as well and I hope that's. Hope we get the blame in the World Series. Champagne and apples for everyone out. Here. Things to Theo Epstein if you'd like to hear more about his work with both the Red Sox and cubs farm systems check -- the full interview on the minor details podcast. It WEEI dot com slash podcast. Thinks is always to producers had a day and build yet to -- for their and the hard work. Thank you for listening to -- next Sunday when will be getting ready for the all star futures game have a great week.