May 24, 2011|
One team ranks among the most resource-strapped in the game; the other is among the richest in the game. And yet, in many respects, the Red Sox' baseball operations department was structured to try to replicate the front office of the Cleveland Indians. This episode of Minor Details looks at how the Red Sox apply the principles of their player development system to their own front office employees in order to build a successful decision-making structure. Sox Assistant GM Ben Cherington details the developmental process with Sox staff members, and the role of that process in maintaining an organization's long-term success.
Transcript - will not be 100% accurate
Welcome back finally to another edition of minor details my apologies for the long delay but even though it's been a solid two months in the last episode. I'm glad to get the podcast backed up and running if only to reintroduce the theme song by Tallahassee. But with the Red Sox playing the Indian it seemed -- a good time to get the podcast back up and running. For a topic to -- little visibility but has quite a bit of relevance to the series that's going on right now. Red Sox make no secret of the significance they believe player development has had in their success of recent years the team prides itself on having homegrown stars like Dustin Pedroia. Kevin Youkilis Jon Lester Clay Buchholz Daniel -- Jonathan Papelbon at all who have become foundations of the club's success. There are others such as Indians pitcher Justin Masterson who pitched in game one. Who have contributed by emerging as valuable trade chips at the Sox also believe that their success draws from a different sort of farm system. The Boston front office in its own -- services demonstration of the value of developing prospects. Several key members of the Red Sox front office started their baseball careers in relatively obscure positions. But the organization has made a point of cultivating the talents of such individuals and helping them grow on the job and then grow into bigger roles. He might sound like a small matter but to the Sox it's anything but. The team believes that the foundation of a successful front office structure is rooted in front office development it's something they feel passionately about. This week a minor details Red Sox assistant GM bench Harrington joins me to discuss this little discussed aspect of building a successful organization. He's in many ways a byproduct of the success of such a system. Which is where the Indians -- Then got a certain baseball through an internship with the Red Sox in the 1990s he was later hired by the Indians is a video advanced out. A role in which she was exposed to what was in some respects. One of the most important front offices in the game in terms of reshaping the baseball landscape even before money ball this may have been the kind of money ball front office. Under then GM John -- 1990s the Indians had a remarkable group of front office members with -- fewer than six fewer -- the future GM's. March a pyro Chris Cincinnati Josh -- called the best Neal Huntington actually seven I guess. Seven the UN have with Canada out of the Rockies now. As both church and himself. All working in the organization at that time. The Indians front office structure is in some ways what Harrington has seen the Sox try to emulate since he returned to Boston in the late 1990s after his year in Cleveland. -- had a number of jobs in the Sox organization. Area scout international scouting coordinator director of player development director of player personnel. His current role as assistant GM and of course his brief stint as coach Jim of the Sox with jet lawyer for the brief period of at the end of 2005. In the start of 2006 when Theo Epstein was on hiatus. So Ben is an example of someone who can get a toehold in the industry as an intern and then scale essentially to the top of a baseball operations structure. That's a model that the Sox try to cultivate again and again as chairing since suggests in this glimpse into the culture and working environment. Of the Red Sox baseball operations structure. Here's the interview. So not to make you -- but I think he might be the the longest tenured member of the front office at this point of the baseball operations for an office. I also think that you might be the only member of the front office to us predate the ownership change center right. -- one exception Raquel Ferreira and -- predates me in the front office and she's. She's a very important part of quote active so right -- and I were. Both here. Prior to New Hampshire -- coming and fortunately for us Switzerland. Yeah well that much cavity is is certainly an asset. I guess stability is too which is something that we should I get into the subsequent -- because. It has been kind of remarkable how many of you guys -- for. A large part of thought of this since the new ownership group how many -- you guys forming together but before we get into. Talking about the Red Sox front office and and how people have developed within that how your role has spoken with him that among others I thought it might be. Interesting to talk about your previous organization when you're with the Indians so that was your first -- was your first job and in baseball are you done any internships -- It actually -- summer internship for the Red Sox prior -- college. But. I think -- the unions. The years that the unions and Andy has. Really in my first foot in the door and front office because I was there for a long period time doesn't -- -- -- responsibility. And I still. You know go back to that time as. You know pretty pretty important and fundamental. Experience from in my career. You wouldn't think necessarily that it would be I mean obviously one's first choctaws plummeted in some respects but. You mentioned kind of irresponsibility and sometimes there's skepticism you had here to rest my second -- you how you obviously also had you know solid academic background but. What kinds of opportunities where you -- in -- you were the other video and you -- the video have been scalp right. Yeah I was I was asked to. Provide reports on the opposition from the president -- staff. Looking back on it. At that time opinions were really did you know there of their rounds of really successful teams in the ninety's mid -- late ninety's. Expectation every year to be a playoff team. And I was the only advanced out there are no advance scouts on the road nobody else in office at least until the playoffs. Generated season I was and so they're asking an intern to perform his job and advance scout. All by myself and thankfully. I had two people on opposite has done before. Josh Byrnes probably the best so a lot a lot of support get help. But it is an incredible experience beginning tasks at that age. The trust of -- -- Learn a lot from a -- -- six -- write to him by the use. Yeah indicative of what the Indians were trying to do in the front office and really had done already before it got there which is. Gives. Test challenge young people gives you young people wrote responsibility. Let them grow and and hopefully over time. Some of those people turn around us that's for them and and help them. Make good decisions -- make an impact on this operation in my case I ended up leaving with a Red Sox. But a lot of people including Joshua Paul we've gone through that program. I ended up staying there longer and had obviously agree have that speaker's problems. -- -- -- fascinating group because -- -- column in 2007. You know in the post season -- the last fourteen standing all had. Significant number of guys -- -- to us that organization because obviously the Indian government against you guys. You Mike -- John -- all hybrids and not at that time in front office in hotel and I think is -- and. It was time at a time I was there 98 there there -- six people. Just in the front office who. Or rather you know current GM and dart's case. Or -- would -- -- Fijians. Relatively. Relatively soon -- march arrows there. You know Huntington's there polity -- there Jeff Francis there Dan O'Dowd is there. TV that's pretty amazing you know in one place and one year to have six people who. We're we're GM isn't gonna speed it -- VMware or certainly the next decade became years. So an incredibly talented group of people and I was I was lucky enough to be there for years and -- for that group. And that was. Again fortunately from these -- the jumping off points or -- operations. That assemblage of talent is almost freakish is the number of Gian from come from New Hampshire population would focus. Half of -- -- Major League Baseball I actually think there's a correlation. It is well it is there's. There's it's it's analogous to someone because they think. It's assumption. I think that the fact that people in England. Grow up. Number one. A lot to -- -- -- -- -- this is passionate following for the Red Sox. See -- grow up with a passionate song or something if it's why I love football coaches from Alabama right Euro negroes are so passionate about something -- following that. And it had a top of that New -- can't play a lot. You know short playing season so it's no surprise that there are obviously players -- dar salaam. The next the outlet is. To study game and you end up in the Washington game. Really critically. Thinking about the -- about the setting game doesn't always feel for -- grow up and environment. You know reading Peter Gammons collars and -- through all the years. And develops this interest and passion -- that side of the game. It's that it's it's not surprising to a lot of people come up and up front offices. In some way that extended to Cleveland weakness. -- the same sort of thing use this collection of people network. Not really interested in gains are trying to find better ways to do things. They're actually fair amount of people from doing -- -- ended up -- them from office also in the DC area right is mark in the vote is yes Josh -- for DC area. So -- and now obviously things can as I said I agree great opportunity for anybody my age. To be around. Thank you people so. It is remarkable to have that many people -- -- those kinds of roles let me just amassing one front office questioned the Cleveland front office didn't. It permitted so many people's kind of because I imagine you know when you'll be getting into hasn't -- city's status the only guy. Who's -- who's focused on that you are not ready to take on the responsibilities and GM you know there has to be learning process. What types of what what did you see in the structure. And way of operating in the Cleveland front office that permitted so many people's -- seemingly flourishing and grow. But think did it at first. Stars who is. Hiring the right people. If they really started target. Hiring young people is as heated as interns. Who might otherwise gone it's investment bank -- years -- -- -- Do other things. One researcher or whatever. But it out and have a passion for baseball. So. The you know it the clear front office more than any probably at least as much as any. That's you know that that they really they started this evolution where. Front offices start of the local different. -- policy -- always gonna -- real need that's going to be really important and I will have people -- a lot of field. On that experience right as -- front office there. But the unions recognized that there is -- -- that those. Also or trying to cultivate that. Through this internship program. That is very answer isn't Josh -- -- -- And not only the real. Responsibilities because it is these -- these brilliant people who. They also very high expectations. Those army here I was there. And hundred hour week was a light week. Well it was there there are very high expectations. And and at the time the team is really did. Messages are sent on the whole thing that on each other another high expectations on the field I think if it's off the field. And then they're adding this this group tells people that mix. And who who. Can develop very quickly environment. An answer that on that Josh was there and unity. Thought -- hired me. And their allies and a lot of other. Nikes after that smothers of -- -- were relieved to get things in the game it just continues. And and we tried we've tried it. And -- pencil line minarets actually taken a slightly different. Attack I think. But certainly certainly focus on developing. Are people in front offices priorities France's most likely. I really do think through the Cleveland front office is kind of who beat. The unknown importantly you know an organization that really impact of the game because. You know before money ball which I mean what Billy did in Oakland -- Yeltsin to note -- what's remarkable thing. It seems like. You know as much as any organization Cleveland's emphasis on -- on getting people who are from to person celestial backgrounds. Was really has signaled that they were. Kind of finding different aspects of the game to incorporate -- to just you know the standard structure of team operations -- As always it was news news news it it was that it was a money off Syrian and looked at and there -- three different lines and it was findings. Undervalued assets -- fining people who can make an impact on the team through good decisions and signing them know when their young. And I will never work for incredibly Cheap Trick incredibly long hours. And then putting them an environment I think he's learned enough about the game and about how to crack staff of scouts. Sentences to eventually be Indian decision making position. And an active teens on a different way. It wasn't finding gas is high on base percentage is. Those -- people that are undervalues the masses to. The rest of the industry. And cultivating those people. Did you ever calculate what your hourly wage was gone ahead listeners this it was is embarrassing. Miles I was. And I lucked out because. At the time at a friends from college you. Had gotten that was nicely which is what basis the lives of Cleveland. And Nestle's. Facilities that based -- so offers a bunch of other brands -- grants. And you -- Supermarket coupons we could literally on supermarket and it wasn't discounts free he he -- -- -- Mac and cheese tray. So out goes in America wants a weak side call out fifty boxes itself perhaps frozen food and ask others done. The software that in the united grant that's about us. Different than the Red -- current encryption program -- -- this. So you mentioned that you know you mentioned that you've tried to apply similar a similar. Organizational culture to to the Red Sox front office. -- a challenge to implement I mean you know from the time you I think it is safe to say that your duties expanded significantly in 2002. To the point where you were kind of you know helping to build the structure of the Red Sox front office but first. Guys in Red Sox in 99000 area scout definitely. I was in the position you much. Much in the way is -- hazards. But Panasonic it gets the office and in the office -- -- 20042001. Season. And fortunately. At that time. You can't you know wanted to do something similar start. Our intern -- it's a younger. Generation. Energy bring younger generation that the office. We have fairly is fairly cheer for office here -- time. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- It is very similar job who lives at Cleveland's advance. Which is which is. And it it being great training for a lot of people exposed you advanced stuff here is watching all the time it's -- training training. And medium as -- first answer fire -- gone to be really important. -- government scouts that are there's an important partner this evening team. And then that's on the Internet there. You know to you assistant GM. It's clearly something he -- to emphasize -- you to expand the program. And in that area parents are experts in order. Brian Aaron. An obvious about it and and that's that's is that that and pretty important group for its. Obviously didn't you know as GM now. Brian is are -- the baseball -- really really a key member of the organization and and I males pushed out there and all three of those guys. You know less than ten years ago or insurance. And that that. Is why it's important. You know it's. We needed to get it we want to want to need to get away from the notion that. Hiring people to perform well it's you know. Someone at menial. Administrative tasks sometimes that that's in Halo -- an internship. It's pretty easy and he found a lot of people that can do that. And me we needed to. We need to focus on. Using as an opportunity to have to find and develop assets. People could really make an impact on your organization. And not just not to sort of seen as an expense and hundreds of hello again to just. Get this worked out. So that group Brian -- you know that summer overall insurance Elena. Full time positions shortly after her and and -- all cards and make an impact on Everett's accident in this case of course on the -- you. How do you go about the process of you know of developing these people once they are in front office and use the terms of developing this people don't like what sorts of principles are important. In terms of in terms of healthy baseball -- structure. What what are you know kind of you know when you talk about helping someone to not just that's just performed the role you've defined what. But also become something beyond that. Yeah I think -- generally. Meaning you need to take the same approach. With. Young people in the process that you know that that you do -- player should be planets of the develop plans for us. And there should be. You know parts of their job descriptions it. Expose them things. They're not as you get that memo they have a chance to learn more. But now they should also be put an emphasis or it can succeed and and competence as a failure which is very much like. You know -- -- tamales from Ireland players you wanna challenge them. To improve on their weaknesses you know I'll put them position itself. Us and try to do the same thing works with the people and our office. That's generally. You approach to think our office thanks to thanks this really mostly thanks -- Is it says it's a fairly flat. Environment in terms of flat out here in terms of the sort of reporting that yes there is there is reporting structure and technically. People report to someone and there's there's -- there's an organizational chart and -- that. But it's very flat environment in terms of kindness. Dialogue back and forth that exists. -- -- is offices. You know I might be in Maryland one minute and then. Consistent night in an accident an instrument being in an accident. Some deals might be an exit that's actually pretty rare mountain. Not just in baseball that that probably most businesses learn. The GM gives access that kind of access you. That that. There product group of people diverse group of people and there were reluctant to I think that really speeds up the development. For someone who's in our office because. You know they get. It's actually engaged with. You know I'm biased that the best in the -- minute. -- and that's that's -- pretty unique opportunity. Along with that comes an expectation that -- -- done -- getting it done very high level and and then they're gonna be worked hard. And and then they're gonna. They're gonna they're gonna have to do to grow work with a smile this is they do the gorgeous stuff. That comes along with -- two but now we're lucky MGM really supports that and allows for. Very. -- of cultivating. Environment. Two exists in office. Why is that a good model and you know the counterargument to you know to this model of inclusiveness -- things that you guys undertake decisions. In a very collaborative effort you know in which some of these people you're talking about four. -- -- -- low on the totem pole or at least might be perceived as such based on title. Never bluster to weigh in and say what they think you know if they get to stand up fanatic -- You know certain aspects of you know certain. Certain elements of baseball decisions. Is that not a clunky model like it doesn't create an efficiencies is that it's pretty. Good not good decision to -- It could be he could be a hit a lot of -- Leo. I think you have to have a six can't I have to be secure enough. To know that. Yet you have a chance. Talk to the and bounce an idea from. Disagreed with sometimes. But then there are also times one. Studios trying to make decisions and have some. Only two or three people around them to make that decision and you're not in the middle of that ends. And and -- he's hopeful that in some cases easier. To never be at all sort of be on the outside because they -- notably missing. In our case. There's a lot of collaboration a lot of back and forth and yeah ultimately he has got very important decisions and sometimes he's gonna close ranks a little bit. And so people in the -- thick -- to that. And then also because it's such a close. Sort of flat environment you know you -- then you know. There's a lot of critical feedback. Not just from the other thing. From others not. In and you know people have to be comparable to that then. And get used to that alone and that that's it's there in the benefits of being in that environment learning from people. Has done a lot of things. They also have to accept there's in the critical feedback time sometimes harsh and critical feedback it. The world were well if if we do your job and hiring people then. We're bringing people in the -- can handle that. Instances -- we will. How many -- current front office or you know our graduates of the intern programs death so we've -- Several members -- on the mound Brian. If you look at our. Our assistant director -- all. Right now event Crockett. It was not an intern McCain and masters. Professional playing career is over. In my best opportunity to play in Italy that's their assets. And Keenan. And to that end video -- job at that about that's how it actually made at a full time positions and he didn't have to do insert your wages but. Similar you know similar sort of entry. And that and he's narcissus farm director. Eddie Romero. -- our sister -- international ops is a lawyer. Bilingual silent under our senior place they're Red Sox. He came in as an international law school and is now. Open -- international apartment along Craig -- -- called bomb. Our assistant scouting director interest -- -- character. Did an internship with the Expos. So he wasn't intended although we hired him by the time we had his full time. He has scouting background and but it but it did an intern and -- -- really can't play -- has similar path even though it started with the start of another team. -- quarter arson during their pro scouting. College Baseball hockey player Oden. Can actually sad didn't interment intrusion at Fort Myers for determined Tuesday and eternity is a -- is an automated that are easy. Slut and a lot for a couple Summers down here in Los a lot of golf pros Lian. Currently there it's him out of purgatory and out of the bus and he's angry. -- it's worth saying like he's in 2004 and Sarasota. With more or less the greatest like yeah you know the Red Sox minor league talent ever -- to see a lot of players would you tell us what Papelbon Lester del Carmen. But -- like I think that there were like 789. Major leaguers hit unusually dry -- -- Israel. Yeah now as a great team and then Zach Scott is RS is director of his thoughts. Was also an -- came from gore and analyst background business wrote it quanta is thinker. As easily -- partner's name teams so. That level leadership in the house announced this director level most -- the dollar interns or at similar an entry level positions. And it's and that's why. We have to do the job married people at that level because you know pretty soon there's opportunities. That the assistant director level we wanna deal from -- from there. We want people who count been in the system understand it and you know assistant directors then you know someday may become directors and Annan. Safe you have. This sort of constant. Flowed generational -- towns in the office is very similar and a I live -- set up you are asking to continue to have talent coming up through. The ranks of that you -- when opportunities come -- gentler it was San Diego right. Let's analysts these opportunities -- then let's have people here that can step in these roles. If we have success -- that's Latinos success. Other people in the office and a half -- We're gonna get opportunities this Moses out of baseball. You know people people are tired from from successful organizations that tends to do it happens so if we do what we should do on the field what we expect to do. Then you know. Two other teams are going to be attracted people from their socks and that's a good thing for all of us who need to have people -- is that that is roles we'll. Because some people come from different. Different professional cultures. I imagine that there's probably an adjustment period -- getting out over the idea that. You know he's flocking to the general manager's office even from perhaps of the organizations but as you point out most of these guys are coming from legal backgrounds -- analytical backgrounds what have you. Is there anything as a front office that you guys do in order to you know to kind of create that culture that you want where people are comfortable giving you back and come on give an example I think the extra 2% book about the race front office. It was just kind of organic but. I guess that they they jacked up and Nintendo Entertainment System that was in. You know and one of the concourses during the offseason brought it up to the baseball ops department. And all of a sudden they were having RBI baseball tournaments here around. Or rather during the entirety of the offseason offender treatment apparently -- directly into. You know and so Democrats and that's kind of an equalizer you know you're on a level playing field even though apparently entered kicks everyone's ass in terms of in terms of how RBI baseball goes but. Is there anything comparable in your front office to create. A culture like that kind of -- level footing. There's a lot of there's a lot of friendly competition. In in the office its desire that baseball percent of might you pick up basketball -- spring training they might be. Something else in the season and office might be offensive football. Whatever it whatever is. There -- opportunities scouts be competitively so there. And then and then within those things that it's usually. -- they didn't get it can get pretty harsh attack him. And you know I think when -- when when it CEO is hard onion. It -- it likely means he trusts you and that's a good thing. If you trust you anything you opportunities yeah accidentally do you think. Learners. And so I think most most this summer when our interns or cheater you know younger younger folks in the office. Our challenge but CO -- criticize certain -- gets about something. It might be. It might be difficult in its second -- happening but. Most -- time after the fact they realize that does its product -- trust me. He's he's comfortable doing that. You know yeah I get I -- May Day I think some things maybe yeah seven million us online but means that you know he wants -- to have to learn and do well so. Think. That's. -- its -- or were our offices folder that I was eight years ago but it's still. The animals in bunches. Thirty something people and and we're all competitive we like we level we do. And -- and then within that when we do things as an office whether it's against Clint -- pick up booths are offensive football we're gonna. Or any competitive enough to -- news and you know we're gonna get into into each other sometimes that's part of that environment. That -- -- the day our job is make good decisions for their Red Sox them. You know gather things we we we have some fun for me from time to time but. The vast vast maturity of the time we spent is is focused on you know trying to find good players -- -- -- how has. Front office decision making -- the front office structure evolved since let's say -- 20032004. What's different out in court did you create at the outset something that was. Something that was worthy. You know a continuation. -- -- in in the form that it ultimately should take and it's now become something where you can kind of step back and it frightened. In having created this culture and that sustainable. I don't think I don't know the culture's changed that much an excellent people change area if you believe Josh Byrnes got an opportunity instead. An opportunity -- viewer's -- of the jobs -- And Jason McLeod left the -- of people a lesson it's that I and other people step to end. Some of the faces are different -- -- -- much I think the wants wants a culture where. Speaking townspeople. He's comfortably in -- these counts himself. Ultimately has proven over and over you you know has no fear of making a decision -- massive making tough decisions. But he didn't in the in the process leading up to that decision. He wants collaboration he wants different opinions he wants people who see the world through different clients. To speak often and speak their mind. Think that's one thing -- That -- I think. Has really has really built that our office and -- it's a collection of people. Especially if you include Allard Baird comfortably -- people who -- -- -- costs and there's certainly part of our process. It's really collection of diverse. Backgrounds. People who have. Experience and gain a lot of passion for the game but have come into him come through in different ways. Chip's case because a lot of big -- don't feel alive he sees things. That happened on the field and pray that. As much harder for somebody consultancy because that is -- -- that. Them on the other hand we've got you know it's like -- -- that are -- You know Zach who has -- really quantitative background. Who sees the game differently it's -- answer a lens that's that's different is the analog -- field as the warrants. Opinions from all those people annual -- counts he wants to challenge them. And ultimately east really good at processing all these opinions and distilling them down into something makes sense for him -- he can get a hand around him alarm. How you guys -- player and then or players and and then you know he makes decisions so. I think the culture hasn't changed much some of the faces have changed. And some of the tools you know we've. You know Ellis -- looking for new ways to. To get information on -- -- new ways to scout players new ways. -- new forms of data to analyze. Some of the tools -- -- of that. Some of the metrics change over time. Perhaps the some of our scouting -- -- time but I don't think that decision making laws changed that much. Cultures and much. Fifteen term -- changed or has to happen -- its changed as well where is no way no way out again interaction -- car it's. It's so competitive. The people that has such as the Red Sox people who are. Looking for jobs front offices throughout these thoughts are just really really. Smart driven talent people. Young men women with different backgrounds but. Who are passionate about baseball really smart and it. You know we get down in our case is in this case very resilient we get down in the final. The final group of people we're trying to pick and a couple people do interns -- had a couple -- turns -- -- -- year. And get tennis final ten. The group of ten or so and anyone knows gonna do good job it and you know I just have to -- two. And so I'm lucky that I was doing trying to do this. That's a long time ago now wholesale long -- but back in you know 9798. You know -- eight it was competitive but. And I don't think dollars and gonna pick this -- this caliber of people that are out there trying to shut up now so lucky I was. I mean that must be partly there is also you know the fact that you do. To encourage people have. You know not just so cool as an -- but also. To promote them because otherwise I have to imagine it -- you know potentially a six figure consulting job or something's there would be it was gonna be a pretty difficult case to make to someone insane. Stepped back from your established professional career and becoming an intern for the idea for a baseball people do it. Count the votes. It's not for everyone. But. You know it that think. It's more likely to happen. An organization. Has proven that those opportunities can actually turn -- into. Full time opportunities as full time opportunities and actually turns. More meaningful positions of leadership positions down the road and certainly Cleveland did that and we hope we've done another seems. We're not alone in this others certainly going to. -- -- -- satisfaction when you do see I mean Jen I think I think and it could be wrong about this just might have been the first person higher. After the new ownership group came in. You know when something like that does graduate to essentially you know the top of the space opera hierarchy -- there isn't Islam is. I was. -- us prior ownership group we have one insurgent and his thoughts and I was in charge of hiring. The -- group. And that offseason. We were hiring. And I interviewed John Daniels as a lawyer -- and had to make a choice and well it said. And pay that both -- right valiantly Indians are. So we -- that we knew we had hired yet. That winner Pryor and -- the official transfer. And then the ownership transfer is gone and I and I and I was worried that. Kids position would be held up because it. As you can imagine in these things are happening it's hard to get physicians groups doubt. So I basically told him he -- in Boston and I was targets for training and I -- its -- -- the live below the quiet earth it is. And and I thought it worked out that. This is. This is the transition happen houses a sought to CEO Owen and the it was a really into this you want you all right you know Graham people consult a higher and late spring training. Yeah so worked out since January 2000 instigate and then as you -- -- He used. You know very probably never realized it. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- I don't think so. And I think you know that's the stats for every. Every team in baseball it doesn't mean yeah this is popularly do it there therefrom really successful front office really -- files -- there really do. We're cultures different definitely it's not. -- -- -- -- But I think that. With the is done is he's. He's created an environment. Number one that works for him or he gets information he needs and he gets in no way that's timely. Where where. Assumptions -- -- challenge not just. Not just others in the prospect is included. -- he's able to make decisions. Around that. And then also you know we've been able to. We've been able to promote from within a lot more then we may have been able to pass. To fill key positions and and we think that's really important you know when you have to go out especially associate the director level assistant director level. And you have to go outside the organization. To fill those positions. You might get lucky -- -- the really the right person and hire someone and it's a seamless transition. But more often not more often there's. There's a period of adjustment and if we can avoid those periods of adjustment much as possible that's what would like to do. This is a great fan -- very much for kind of taking time to explain a lot of people I think unseen part of what happens you know. You know -- -- -- an element of the process that lends itself to the decisions that ultimately yield -- on the field and it's kind of collision occurred in the. -- my pleasure and I'm not not not something that's gets as much focuses on is what should get to vote and that's what what is gonna feel the players should be the focus for all of us. But we do think our best chance. Fine right players -- -- continue to put in teams togethers that. As he is in part to continue to cultivate the town we have an office of -- and a. That's it for this edition of minor details and I promise look at the next episode opened fewer than two months in fact there are some other conversations leftover from spring training that we'll try to get on mine. Before the end of the month. And with the MLB draft looming in the first week of June there should be plenty of we have material to draw from. If you have any suggestions for future shows I'm listening. Or if you wanna offer any feedback the good the bad the ugly or whatever else just go ahead and contact me on Twitter at Alex beer. Or -- or by email at -- spear at WEEI. Dot com. -- you for listening and thanks to Tallahassee for closing this out and that's by the way to Tallahassee on the release of their album jealous hands. It's great it sounds nothing like the theme song but it still awesome. So go listen to it again and again to pass the time until the next podcast episode which -- soon.